November 6, 2025 – 212 Cochituate Road Advisory Committee – Video & Transcript
November 6, 2025 - 212 Cochituate Road Advisory Committee
All right, so we'll call to order the meeting of the 212 Citroën Road Advisory Committee at 11.05 on Thursday, the 6th of November, 2025.
With us today on this meeting, which is all by Zoom, is Bill Whitney, Gene Milburn, Bill Adams, Stephanie Lynch, and myself, Tom Fay.
We have a quorum. I'll let the committee know that I have – I'm actually in the southwest right now.
I have a commitment at 9.30, so I'll be signing off at 9.30, but in a moment I'll transfer the championship of this meeting to Bill Whitney.
We'll get through a couple of things.
First of all, the agenda at today's meeting will include public comment.
Then we'll welcome various individuals in the industry of helping those adults with disabilities, including Patty Sullivan for the Wayside Youth and Family Support Network, Vic DeGravio, President and CEO of Riverside Community Care, Steve Merritt, former Interim Director of the Wolsey Housing Authority, and Ronnie Kessler, Director of Student Services, and the Title Line Coordinator for the Wayland Public Schools.
After that, or at some point, we'll consider minutes from our October 8th and October 22nd meetings of this year.
After that, we'll consider a discussion of how best to review all the information that we've received to date,
and in order that we can make recommendations to the Select Board.
After that, we'll consider a follow-up on legal and other questions during our October 8th meeting.
I will tell – tell Member Whitney that I have no more information on Item 6.
All right, so given that, I'd open the meeting up to public comment.
Anybody online, Jalen, that has indicated they'd like to give public comment?
I see nobody – I see nobody raising their hand, so I do welcome John Thomas to the meeting. So, at this point, I would welcome Patty Sullivan to the meeting. Patty, thanks for joining us today. I'd ask that you introduce yourself, tell us who you're associated with, and feel free to talk about the work that you do. And at this point, I'll turn the meeting over to Member Whitney, and he can take it from here. But I will stay on the meeting until 9.30 – I'm sorry, until 11.30, 9.30 my time. 11.30 your time, and I'll sign off at that – quietly sign off at that point. So, welcome, Patty Sullivan. Thank you. Hi. Good morning, everybody. So, I just – I work for Wayside Youth and Family Support. I'm sorry, Patty. I'm just going to interrupt briefly. I'm sorry. Sure. I wasn't able to chat this in, because I don't think there is chat on this, but I may have to step out. So, if I disappear for 15 or 20 minutes, it will be briefly, because there's some stuff going on at my house, but then I'll be back. So, just wanted to tell people that, and thank you for being here. All right. Let me make this one comment. If you step out, Bill, and I'm gone, that reduces our quorum. We're now a seven-member committee. Since Ms. Provost left the committee, she moved out of town. She resigned from the committee, and it appears that her spot won't be filled. So, we do need four to keep a quorum. So, maybe we'll – I leave it up to member Whitney to maybe stop the meeting until you're able to come back, unless you don't want to leave now and come back by 1130, but I don't want to tell you what to do. No, it's a thing in my house, so when the person arrives, I have to spend 15 minutes with them. But I don't know when they're coming. Okay. Well, maybe have a quick lunch break or something. No, actually, I apologize. With John here, we'll maintain the quorum. So, you're all set, Bill. Great. All right. Patty, the floor is yours. Good morning, everybody. So, I am the Senior Director of Young Adult Residential Services at Wayside. So, Wayside Youth and Family Support Network is a mental health-focused agency. We work with youth and young adults anywhere between the ages of six, seven years old, all the way up to 26 years old. We do do some work with adults through the Department of Children and Families as well, but we're mostly focused as that 26 and under age group. We have services all over the state of Massachusetts. We're the lead agency to DCF in several communities. We're funded through DCF, DMH, HUD. We have various grants in several of our programs as well across the state. My job solely is I oversee all of our young adult residential facilities. So, we have facilities in Methuen. We have two in Somerville, one in Waltham, one in Framingham, and one in Arlington. So, those are, some of them are funded through DMH and some of them are funded through DCF. They all work with youth and young adults that are between the ages of 17 to 24, 25. We have contracts, like I said, through DMH as well as DCF, and we also work with the HUD program with the government grants, which we provide assistance and housing assistance and shelter to young adults who are experiencing chronic homelessness. We work mostly with young adults who have mental health needs. We also do have a large population in our DCF programs of unaccompanied refugee minors. who have come into the country before their 18th birthday, seeking asylum in the United States. So, those programs are very unique. Clearly, you know, we have kids who come from all over the country and we actually, I mean, all over the world. We actually don't even get to meet them until we pick them up at Logan Airport. So, it's a pretty unique and dynamic experience, for sure. And these kids are some of the most unbelievable people coming into this country with no family, nothing. Half of them, you know, don't speak English at all or just a little. And so, seeing them, you know, grow and change is certainly inspiring. So, that's, you know, kind of like the quick synopsis of what my role is at the programs. I oversee five directors and six clinical directors. So, I oversee and supervise them weekly. And we have about 120 young adult beds. And that's just in the young adult residential portion. We also have, you know, we have a campus in Framingham, which houses over 100 adolescents. And we also do a lot of community services. We have the Family Resource Center, which is in Framingham. We also have several outpatient services and in-home services that provide services to families and to children in the home. So, I guess that's kind of, we don't do a lot of work with the DDS, with the Department of Developmental Services. Most of our services are focused on mental health needs.
Anybody have any questions? Do members of the committee have questions of Ms. Sullivan? Well, certainly, this is Jean Melbourne. What are your incremental needs for housing? What's the profile of the people who need housing? You know? Yeah, yeah. So, I would say, you know, this is, of course, my niche is young adults. But I would say that that is probably that 18 to 24-year-old range is definitely a place that we definitely need support in housing. There are, I'm part of a committee through HUD that it, you know, with the new administration, there's going to be a lot of cutbacks on in that. And so, we're not really sure what next year's programming is going to look like, but they're looking at a 30% cap of what we've originally had for funding in what is called permanent supported housing. And this is a housing program that we, you know, we meet a young adult that's homeless, we work with them to find them a job, we provide case management. If they need mental health services, we can connect them to community services. And then we find them an apartment, and they are the leaseholder, and we figure out through their, you know, their work how much they can pay in rent, and then we supplement their rent. They can stay in that program from up to two years, and the idea is that we slowly pull away, and we slowly pay less and less and less and less and less. That has been historically the most successful way to house young adults and keep them house and because there's a lot of responsibility on them. We do have supported apartments where we hold the lease, but we find that that is not as successful. That's through a contract through DMH, so we continue to do it, but it's not as successful given they're not on the lease, you know, there's not much if they don't decide to pay their rent. We still pay their rent, so, you know, the piece through HUD is actually, you know, really gives them a lot of independence and really puts a lot of emphasis on them having to pay the rent. They're on the lease. Nobody wants to be evicted. No one wants to have an eviction on their record. We would not step in and cover their full lease. If they don't cover their portion, then we support them in managing that, but we would not financially step in. With the HUD cuts, which they're proposing this 30% cap on these types of programs, HUD is really looking to cut out a lot of programming. And they're, you know, because their funding is going to be cut by so much, they're looking to house elderly and children and family with children. You know, obviously that, obviously that's a really big need. With this 30% cap, if that does go through, it could leave up to 758 families unhoused. In addition to what we already are seeing, which I know you all know is, you know, a pretty chronic problem across the state. So their focus is going to be on those higher need families. And unfortunately, young adults don't fit into that bracket. They're going to be looking at more transitional services for them. And we do have a transitional program, which is basically like a shelter. They just have to prove that they're chronically homeless and then they can stay there for up to two years. But again, we don't find that to be as successful to providing that long-term stability because they're not responsible for the lease. You know, it's a three-decker that we own and, you know, we pay for. And, you know, they're expected to pay rent. But if they don't, there's not a lot of recourse. So I would say that permanent supported housing is really the piece, at least for the young adult population. And I would assume it would transfer over into older adults as well, is the piece that we would really, that is where the housing need is definitely. Because it's a short-term service. It's a robust service. They'll provide the case management piece, which, you know, provides support and clinical counseling if they need it. And then there's also the responsibility piece where they are the leaseholder. So there's a lot riding on whether or not they can keep their job and pay their rent and focus on making themselves more successful for the future.
What percentage of this population is coming out of the foster care system? I don't know the exact number, but I can tell you, I would say, so we have our two DCF young adult programs. They're both working with the Accentria population, which is the Unaccompanied Refugee Minor Program that I told you about. And they are part of that as a subset of DCF. But we also have kids who have signed themselves back into the DCF services. So I would say, you know, probably about 30%, 25% to 30% of these young adults are coming out of the system. And that's hard to, I don't know, like the kids that are homeless don't really have a lot of information on where they were. And so I'm just thinking of the young adults that we definitely know that have definitely come from DCF. And then I would say that the other two thirds or the other probably 50%, 60% is coming out of DMH funded programs. So they've had, you know, DMH, Department of Mental Health Services throughout most of their life and now meet adult eligibility. And they are, they probably are about 60, 65%. And then that last percent is those HUD kids that we see because those are our smallest contracts and grants. Thank you. Sure. I'm curious, do these individuals live independently or do they have staff, caregivers, full or part-time? Yeah, so actually all. So we, you know, we have group homes. So there are five group homes where it is staffed 24 hours a day. Young adults live there. You know, they provide, they get mental health services. They get case management services. They're expected to, you know, have jobs, day structure. A lot of the kids that are at that level are usually still in high school trying to finish up their high school degree, especially in those DCF programs. The kids that come in as unaccompanied minors, typically, you know, they're 18, 19 years old and they're at like a sophomore level in high school because the educational systems are just not the same outside the United States. So a lot of those young adults are still in high school, so there is five of those. And then we also have step-down. So we call that the pre-independent living. And then we have like a step-down, which is called an independent living in five different programs. We have, let's see, we have seven, we have eight apartments, which we hold the lease on. And those are not staffed 24 hours a day. The young adults live there on their own. They're expected to pay their rent, a portion of the rent, which is how we calculate that as 30% of their income, which is typically how Section 8 has calculated rent income. So we would have them pay rent. They're expected to clean, cook, things like that. They have to pay for their own utilities, Wi-Fi, things like that. So it's a step down. We do continue to provide case management. Sometimes in the DMH programs, we provide medication management. We'll pack their medication. So they'll hold like six or seven days worth. And we'll go out and make sure that they're taking them and that they have refills and things like that. And then we also have this last level, which we have outreach. And those kids either move out on their own or they move home with their families or they live in the community. And we see them in a community-based. And then there's the HUD programming, which is we have the transitional program, which is in Somerville. And that's a nine-bed. The easiest way to describe it is it's kind of like a homeless shelter. Kids have to, they present at the Somerville Homeless Coalition. They have to prove that they're not, they have nowhere to stay, which is usually just like a letter from someone. Or if they have like, they've been staying at different shelters, they can prove that that shelter can provide documentation. And then they can stay up to two years. That is not staffed. We are lucky in that we've been able to find a three-decker across the street from one of our group homes. So we do staff it because we find that it turns into, sometimes it can be a bit of a nightmare with nine young adults living under one roof. And so we do staff that, we don't staff it full-time, but we do have an overnight staff that stays awake there on every night. And then during like office hours, our clinical staff is over there from the DCF program. And then, yeah, so, and then the, the last piece is the, the HUD apartments, which is, we have six slots through our, through a program in Methuen, which we house young adults. And that's the, that's the part of the programming that they are on the lease and we supplement the lease for them. And we also provide case management. Another piece of that program is called youth navigation, which we do street, street outreach. So we have a youth navigator and she does street outreach to, outreach to a lot of communities in, you know, the Lowell, Methuen, Haverhill, that area to work with young adults who are on the street and, and how to help them connect them to resources. Quite often that's a feeder program into the, the other, you know, the permanent supported housing program, but not always.
John. John, I think you're muted.
Sorry about that. Um, Bill, I just wanted to mention that, uh, Brian Boja is on this call, um, but he's not visible. Thank you.
So I guess my question would be, um, do you build your own houses? Like, um, and what would be a, if I could ask, if I could ask, if I could ask Jalen maybe to bring Brian over. Thanks.
And if you were to build a place, like how many people would live there? And, and then while I'm at, while I have the floor, like, um, how do you think about public transport or transportation or how people get around? Um, if perhaps they don't have a car. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a huge factor that we factor in. Um, so I would say we, it's a mix. Um, we rent the house in both houses in Somerville. We have two large houses in Somerville. We rent both of those. Um, we have tried several times to find a house that we could buy. It's hard to find close houses. I mean, we're, we're so lucky that we were able to rent these two places across the street from each other so that we're able to provide more support to that HUD housing. Um, so that is always something that we've kind of thought about is, should we buy a three-decker? Um, obviously the Somerville area is, you know, very expensive and it's really hard for a nonprofit to buy a three-family house, um, in there. And also there's not a lot of inventory. So, um, we do own the house where our, our young adult program group home is located in Framingham. We own that house. Um, we also own, um, the Waltham house and we own the house that's in Methuen. Um, I would say, you know, really the, the, we could really use more, um, more housing in the Methuen area. I think that's a really difficult area for kids to go, or even further north, the North Shore. However, the public transportation is like not that great up there. So it's like, are we putting these kids in housing that then they can't go anywhere? How are we creating like this, this cycle of dependence on us, you know? So, I mean, the Arlington program and the, and the Somerville program, those kids are out and about all the time. They're, you know, walking to Davis square and they're out on the T and so, um, and the bus system is so robust. So that is definitely, um, like we, I would love in a perfect world, I would love to own a place in Somerville. Other questions of Patty?
Tom. Thank you, Bill. Um, Roach Family Foundation is a for-profit organization. They have homes, I believe, in Noah and Walpole, and then the Charles River group has a home in Wayland. Do, um, residents of any of those homes go to your day programs at all? Do you know, Patty? I don't know off the top of my head. Um, I don't oversee, there is a young adult group home, I mean, um, day center, and then there's also the family resource center. So I'm not really sure. Um, I do know that we do some work with employment options, which is like a clubhouse, and I think it's in Marlboro, and I would assume maybe some of, some of the, um, the people that you're talking about might attend to that daily. All right. Thank you. John, Brian, questions?
I'm good. Thank you. Patty, um, given particularly, uh, the, uh, anticipated cutbacks of the HUD funding, do you, uh, foresee the need or the ability to develop additional housing, uh, under that program? So that is what we're kind of trying to explore with HUD right now. I'm, I'm part of a small focus group trying to figure out, like, how can we get the most bang for our buck, you know, through this funding? Um, what we were looking at some of the agencies that do particularly well, you know, is it a way to, to pool our resources into these programs that seem to have a niche for this? Um, you know, because obviously agencies do better than other agencies. So trying to figure that out and trying to figure out, um, how we could DTI up in the, up near Methuen, and if the, if they can work together to work to, you know, and to pool their resources so that they can try to facilitate the most amount of work. Um, so that is something that we're, we're looking into. I mean, this, we're okay for money for the next, um, up until next, like, August, um, because that has already been, like, has been, like, um, put out there. This is, we're, we're looking for the, the following grant year. Um, and so I think that would be, um, you know, those would be the people that we would want to focus on, on trying to create, if there's a way for us to continue the work that we're doing with the permanent supported housing, that is what, what our focus would be. And that's kind of what we're focused on right now in this group that I attend. Um, because like I said, the transitional housing, well, it's, it's a bandaid, right? I mean, I heard somebody say the other day, it's a bandaid for a bullet hole. And it is like, that is what like, you know, these are, um, it, it does give you a warm place to stay, but it, it doesn't, it's not, that responsibility isn't there. And I, you know, we all know as, you know, youth and young adults, they need to feel that responsibility to build that autonomy, that then they can build off of that, to be more successful and, um, you know, there, that just isn't built into those programs. So I'm sad to see the fact that that's where the money is going to start going, um, because I think it's just a quick bandaid. And I don't think long-term it's, it's, it's, it's, I know long-term it's not nearly as successful as the other programs.
Well, um, you're, you've been very generous with your time. Uh, this has been very helpful information, uh, for our committee. And I'm sure I speak, uh, for everyone in, uh, expressing our appreciation to you and your colleagues for the important work that you do, uh, with, uh, a challenging population, I'm sure. Uh, so, uh, we, uh, again, thank you for, for, for, uh, your participation and, uh, best of luck to you and your colleagues as you go forward with this important work. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much. Thank you. The next, uh, item on the agenda, uh, a conversation with Vic, uh, Di Gravino, uh, president and CEO of Riverside Community Care. Uh, uh, good morning, Mr. Good morning. Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, I, I'm sure you've been in touch with Tom Fay, who, uh, unfortunately has just left us. Um, this is, uh, the committee that is, uh, uh, advisory to the Wayland Select board, uh, and we are exploring various, uh, models for providing, uh, housing for people with, uh, disabilities. And so we're very interested in the work that, uh, Riverside Community Care does. And so I wondered if you could give us just an overview of, uh, uh, of your programs and, uh, the services you provide. Well, we're happy to, um, thank you for inviting me. Um, so Riverside Community Care is a, um, non-profit provider of behavioral health care and human services. Uh, we're based in Denham. We provide services throughout much of Eastern Massachusetts, um, going up to the North Shore, Andover, North Redding, um, coming down through Cambridge Somerville, and then, uh, um, Needham, Dedham, kind of Metro West area. Uh, not, I guess, not technically Metro West, if you consider Metro West Framingham, um, New Orwood, then going through South Eastern Massachusetts to Milford and, um, all the way to Southern Worcester County. Um, we provide a range of services, all community-based, uh, so we have four outpatient behavioral health centers. Uh, we have two community behavioral health centers, which are, um, the state's version of enhanced outpatient mental health centers. We provide services, um, to children and families, to adults. We provide services to individuals with developmental disabilities, acquired brain injury, um, mental health disorders, substance use disorders. Uh, we provide early intervention services to children under the age of three who are experiencing developmental delays. We have two small private, uh, special education schools. So we, we provide a, a broad array of services to a broad population. We have 1,700 employees, um, the geography that I mentioned earlier, we, it's important to note, we don't provide every service in every geography, uh, depending on the geography, we may have a different array of services. In terms of residential services, which I know this group is most interested in, uh, we have two primary funders for, in, in populations we serve through residential program, uh, programming. One is the developmental disability, acquired brain injury population, uh, those, uh, residential homes are funded, uh, almost exclusively by the department of developmental services, the Massachusetts department of developmental services. We have 33, um, we have 33, um, um, I think two or three of them are funded by the old mass rehab commission, which is now called mass ability. And then through contracts with the department of mental health, we have, I believe we have eight. I don't know how folks experiences working with state government, but, um, state likes to make things as challenging as possible. So what DDS calls group homes, the department of mental health calls group living environments, GLEs. So we have eight, uh, group living environments, um, that serve clients of the department of mental health. And, um, we have two or three residential, um, I'm sorry, respite programs, which are also residential programs, but there it's a shorter length of stay. For clients of the department of mental health who need a more intensive supports, um, for a short period of time before they go back to maybe their own apartment or another group living environment. Some of them may live with family members. Uh, so that's, um, that's an overview of Riverside and the, the type of residential programming we offer. So I'm happy to, um, uh, Tom said he was looking for more of a, a, a dialogue and a Q and a type session. So I'm happy to answer questions on the service we, we provide, how they're funded, how they're staffed, um, whatever, whatever direction is most helpful to the group. Great. Thank you. Questions of, uh, Mr. DeGravion. I was interested in how they're staffed, especially the homes that are funded by DDS. Do they have, um, do the individuals get part or time or full-time staff and how's that, you know, are they on site? Good, good, good question, Stephanie. So yes, all the, all the, um, the group homes, both for the DDS group homes and the DMH group homes, they are by definition staffed 24-7, uh, depending on the state agency and the population, the staffing levels will vary. But typically we have staffing ratios we need to meet, um, in staffing, minimum staffing requirements. We need to abide by under the terms of our contract with the state agency and in our licensing requirements. And I've, also, I'm interested, since that varies, um, would you have any advice in terms of if, if we're designing, um, a group living situation and there could be a different number of staff needed depending on the population at the time? Any suggestions about, uh, how that, how that could be built? Um, so it depends, and I'm not sure I may answer that question. Um, with a question back to you, Stephanie, and, and this is one of my, uh, this group, are you thinking of trying to develop your own residential programs or make properties? Right, we, we have a chance to start from the ground and put, build it in, uh, like, for instance, um, there might be a time when you have several people who need one-to-one. There might be a time when, you know, when that space could be used for another residence and they'd have less staff needed. Um, and, um, we have the chance to actually design the building. Um, it would be, you know, rather than having to work with what's there. Stephanie, can I just, can I just interject and, and Vic, um, John Thomas, it's, it's been a while since I've, I've worked with you, um, when I was at the ARC, uh, Vic. That's right. Hey, John. Hey, I'm okay. How are you? Great. Uh, Vic used to be the Chief of Staff to, uh, State Senator Fred Berry, who was a big disability advocate in the State House. So, uh, just wanted to throw that out. But, uh, Vic, we're, we're, and, and Stephanie, just to clarify, I don't think we, we are interested in designing. We, I mean, I think this committee is sort of tasked with putting together a wishlist of, of, and please, anybody, correct me if my impression is incorrect. But I think it's our task to put together eventually, um, uh, perhaps an RFP, uh, for somebody to come in and do the design work. But it's us, it's up to us to actually put together the criteria for what that would look like, Vic. So, is that here? Okay. Everybody, Stephanie. Right. It's more like. Step on your toes. What goes on, what things would go on our wishlist. Right. Yeah. That's right. So that's helpful. Thank you both. And John, great to see you again. It's been great to see you. In many years.
The town may actually administer the, the, the group home program that you build, or you're just trying to make sites available that an organization like Riverside or VINFEN or, um, Edinburgh center might be able to either rent or acquire to provide under contract to a state agency. The latter. The latter. Okay. So getting, Stephanie, getting back to your question. Um, a big issue, both in the IDD world, the, uh, intellectual and developmental disability world, and in the, the mental health world is that the population that we're serving is growing older. Um, and that's a relatively new phenomenon in part because of advances. We've just become better at serving and meeting the needs of folks with severe mental illnesses or significant developmental disabilities. Um, so we're seeing older folks that require more supports, um, and more, um, accessibility requirements. So if the town was looking to develop property, I would certainly encourage you to look at developing properties that are fully accessible because that will make them more appealing to organizations like Riverside, VINFEN, the Edinburgh center, um, advocates, um, and it will make more appealing to the state agencies that are looking to fund programs. Uh, because that, that absolutely is a, is a, um, uh, a growing need. And a lot of us have old housing stock that is either really, um, it prohibitively expensive to upgrade and to make accessible, um, or maybe just, and not, there's just not the space on the, the lots that we, um, especially in older communities where the lots are smaller in size. So I, I would absolutely encourage you to, to think in those terms. Thanks. It's very helpful. Other questions. This is, uh, unusually, uh, reticent group this morning. I was going to say, I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit surprised. I was, I was all geared up. Yeah. Okay. Jean, go ahead. Okay. Uh, a little bit of an idealized planning exercise here. If, if you could plan a residential building for your population right now and just get what you wanted, what would that residence look like? So it, it probably depends a bit on the population, Jean, but absolutely fully accessible. Um, so that we could accommodate as many individuals as possible, um, who either have accessibility issues, um, from the beginning or may develop accessibility issues, um, moving forward. Um, and, and also the location may matter because depending on how independent the individuals are living there, the idea that folks have a place that they, um, if they don't drive or they don't have a car, they could walk to either public transportation or, um, a local market or a library. Um, so they're not entirely dependent on transportation from the organization. Um, because what we try to avoid at all possible is, and John will certainly understand this, that the reason why we have so many group homes is that was part of the state's intentional shift away from state institutions, um, and to allow people to live as independently in the community, um, and as freely in the community as possible to have a group home. That's very isolated and is not easily accessible by public transportation, or you can't get to a library or store, a store so that the, the residents are entirely dependent on transportation provided by the, the organization that's running the home can in some ways be another form of institutionalization. So, um, that's an important piece, but then there are differences. The state has a great need for residential programs for what they call the turning 22 population. Those are, um, young people who under state law are served through the education system until they turn 22. And once they turn 22, they age out of the education, special education system, and then become, um, the, they become clients of the department of developmental services. Um, there's a huge spike in that population because of the, um, the growth in autism, um, the incidence of autism. So a home that's going to serve a turning 22 population may have, you may want different, you may want a basketball court in the backyard or in the driveway. Um, you may want some recreational space. Um, so it, it can really different, different depending on the population. Thank you. I'll, I'll throw one in since we got Vic all excited here. Um, so Vic, um, this is Wayland. It's an expensive community to, to develop a program and obviously, uh, and I, I, I personally think that it would be an, a great opportunity for DDS or DMH, uh, to, to have the opportunity to develop, um, a program at this location. It, it probably by, by most, uh, standards would be considered, uh, pretty not non accessible. I mean, it, it is, it's in a neighborhood. Uh, Wayland is largely, uh, you know, a car driven community. Um, there is a sidewalk, uh, out front of the house, but it, you know, it, the location is pretty far away from the, the library, the downtown area, et cetera. So, um, that being said, I mean, what, how would you go about crafting a program to sort of fit into this particular location? And again, we're talking about a four acre, uh, lot. I know that's kind of a blank slate to throw out. Yeah. But so it's, it's absolutely, we, we could do it in any of our peer organizations could do it and would again, depending on for, for us, the biggest challenge is the reimbursement, essentially what the state pays us to provide the services. Right. Um, so depending on what the occupancy costs are, um, that, that would be a big factor, but we absolutely have, we opened a new group living environment for DMH clients in Walpole, uh, which kind of fell into our lap. It's a nine bedroom house, beautiful house, not really accessible to anything by foot, but at the same time, it was too good of an opportunity for us and for the department of mental health to pass up. So I don't, if you moved forward with this type of plan, you're going to have it. I think the key thing is making sure that the state agencies are aware of what you're doing so that, um, you have somebody that will pay for the program and that's going to be provided in the home. Because if you don't have that, unless you find some private organization with deep pockets, the, and they, they are out there, as you know, John, um, but there's not a lot of them. You're going to have problems actually having a program in that, that, on that property. Right. And concerns about long-term operating expenses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I'm interested to hear you say that, uh, you, uh, recently worked on a nine bedroom house. Uh, we understood that, uh, the state has a cap of, uh, really five residents per group home. Uh, yes, I think it depends on the, the agency in the program. So this was a department of mental health group living environment. Um, and they were very comfortable, um, with the size of the program. And then the staffing scales up depending on the, the number of staff you have. Um, the biggest requirement for these programs is that everybody has their own bedroom. Uh, so that, that's key. Um, but yeah, we, we, it was, and that, that's a larger house for us and it did present some staffing challenges for us, but it was something the, um, the DMH, the department really wanted to do and, um, we, we always try to be good partners with the state agencies, but, um, I know DDS may have a cap on how many residents. As I think about our group homes on the DDS side, I think you're right. We probably don't have any group homes, certainly with more than five residents. And we may, most of them may be three or four residents. And as, uh, with respect to your, um, suggestion that, uh, you know, uh, well, your observation, I guess that the biggest challenge is reimbursement from the state and your advice that we, uh, go to the state and see if we can secure some type of commitment or expression of interest. Um, uh, many of the people we've talked to have, uh, worked with existing structures rather than new construction. And, and this would be new construction. It's a vacant site, uh, as John points out, four acres. Um, uh, so, uh, uh, would the state, do you think, uh, acknowledge the fact that there will be higher construction costs and, uh, though, obviously it will be fully accessible. Um, it's a good question. Um, especially given that we're looking at potential budget cuts. So at the state level, I, I think that's a conversation and you, you all would want to have with the state agencies and maybe through your legislative delegation. Um, because that's, that it's a really good question. I mean, it does have to from, I mean, we're a nonprofit organization. So we, we understand that when we go into a contract with the state, we're not, we don't make a profit. We, whatever surplus we have from operations goes back into our, um, our organization and our services. But we have to be really careful about taking on contracts where we lose money because, um, if we have too many of those, then we jeopardize the, the financial health of the overall organization. Um, so that it's a really important question that would need to be answered for by whether it's Riverside again, or any of our peer organizations, like what are the operating costs going to be? Right. Has Riverside done ground up construction of, uh, a group home or a community residence, uh, or any alternative? Have you worked with developers, uh, and then turned around and done a master lease? We have not. Um, so I've been with Riverside just over four years now. And in our recent history, I don't believe we have, we've done a couple, just in the past 12 months, we've done, um, basically gutted existing structures and did total renovations, but they were, they were existing structures. Um, we have not done any ground up projects in recent history, but I know there are organizations that do, um, and part of it's our geography, right? There's just not a lot of new, new land to develop, but I know some of our colleagues out probably more in the central part of the state have probably done, um, deals like that. Other questions of Vic? It's a quiet group today. Maybe, uh, That last question was my question, so you said it for me. So I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, um, it sounds like you have a terrific program and, uh, gosh, 1700 employees. That's, uh, that's a substantial organization. Um, Um, it, it is what started 40 years ago is a small nonprofit in the basement of a church in Newton is, um, is, it's become quite a large, complicated business at this point. Really need a large church basement to get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, if there are no further questions, uh, we'd like very much to thank you, uh, for, uh, your, uh, your time. Uh, you clearly, uh, know your business really well, and this is, uh, very, uh, valuable information and good advice. Uh, so we're appreciative of that. Uh, and, uh, we wish you, uh, continued success. Thank you. Good luck. This sounds like a fantastic project. So thank you for thinking of this type of project and good luck with everything. Thanks very much. Thanks, Rick. Good seeing you. Good seeing you too, John. Okay. Um, I don't believe, uh, our next panelist or our next, uh, resource person is gonna be, uh, joining us, uh, imminently, uh, that being Steve Merritt, uh, former interim director of the Wellesley Housing Authority. Um, it, what we might consider doing is, uh, jumping to, uh, agenda item number four for the moment, uh, consideration of the minutes of the October 8th and October 22nd meetings. If there's no objection. I move to approve. I'll second. Okay. Uh, those, uh, both sets of minutes. All right. I move November 6th. Okay. I'll second. Okay. Uh, any comments on, on the minutes? It was my first use of AI. It was exciting. It's cool. Really cool. Question. What tool did you use just out of curiosity? It was tricky because you can't just drop a video into, um, into a chat bot. So I actually used my zoom from work. And then I played the video on my computer while, while I was sharing my zoom screen with myself. And I only took out the part where the neighbor session, the 40 minutes where the neighbors were talking. And then I asked zoom AI to create a transcript. First a one pager, then a three pager, and then please summarize the concerns of the neighbors. And then I created a two pager from that stuff. And it took, you know, an hour or so, but it wasn't too bad. You didn't have a 14 year old do that for you. If I had a son at home, I would have made him do it, but he's off at college. Okay. The, uh, I guess the only suggestion I would have is, uh, on the vote, uh, that was taken for adjournment. It might be well to indicate that that was on a roll call since, uh, under state law, we need to take roll call votes, uh, when there are, uh, remote or, uh, hybrid meetings. Um, so, uh, Brian, if you will accept that amendment, uh, I accept that. Yep. Okay. Uh, so, uh, uh, on Brian's, if there's no further discussion on Brian's motion to approve the minutes of November, the, uh, 6th as amended, um, those in favor, Jean. Yes. Yes. Stephanie. Yes. Brian. Yes. John. Yes. Bill. Yes. I vote yes as well. Okay. Thank you. Uh, we have one other set of minutes, I believe. October 22nd. You, is that a motion, Brian? I move to approve the minutes of October 22nd. Thank you. Uh, is there a second? Second. Any, uh, questions or, uh, comments? Okay. If there's no further discussion, uh, on the motion, Brian? Aye. Uh, John? Aye. Bill? Aye. Jean? Aye. Stephanie? Aye. I vote aye as well. Okay. Great. Thank you. Uh, both sets of minutes are approved. Um, okay. Um, I do not see that, um, Steve Merritt has joined us as yet. Is Ronnie Kessler still planning to join us? Do you know? I believe so. Uh, though, uh, not right away, I think at, uh, uh, 1 PM. So, um, I guess Vic had, uh, uh, according to Tom, uh, Tom had allowed for an hour for the conversation with Vic. So, um, I think we have some time on our hands cause, uh, I guess Steve Merritt is not expected until 1230. Um, should, can we begin discussion? Sure. Uh, if you'd like, we can, uh, move to, uh, agenda item number five, discussion regarding most effective process and synthesizing and organizing the extensive information received by the committee to date in order to develop recommendations of the Whale and Select Board pursuant to the committee's charge. So, um, any, uh. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I've been wondering if we don't need a little guidance from the Select Board at this point, um, you know, it's going to be impossible to pick a project based on merit as in who do we help? Because there are so many disabled populations with different characteristics. Um, from listening to these vendors, uh, you know, they sort of group them as according to how, how you take care of the people. Um, if the Select Board had any preferences that we should be considering at this point, it'd be nice to know. But if they want us to just do an idealized planning exercise, we can do that. But we might be more efficient with a little more guidance. Yeah. I, I think frankly, Gene, uh, the Select Board is looking to this committee, uh, for its recommendation and its guidance. Um, it, it may be possible, uh, to frame some choices for the Select Board if you'd rather, uh, if you'd feel more comfortable with that. Uh, uh, I think people generally respond or can react better to, uh, a draft or a finite set of choices than going back and then saying, Hey, you know, what do you think? Um, Bill, I, I think also, um, if I could, uh, Gene, I think, you know, we, we've, we've heard from a lot of, um, vendor agencies that do business with the state to actually, uh, build, build and staff the programs. I think one of the things that maybe is missing in, uh, the folks that we've heard from so far is, uh, the voice of the, the actual constituents of, of the folks that are going to be served, um, in a potential program. Um, that's why I was actually looking forward to hearing from Ronnie because she can speak directly to the future needs of the kids that are currently in the public school system that are going to be in need of housing. Um, she, she has the data at her fingertips that can sort of tell the story as to, um, what the need is going to be for kids that are turning 22 this year, next year, 10 years down the road. Uh, so I'm kind of anxious to hear from her. Um, I'd also really be interested to hear from any other constituent groups in town that might have, uh, some information that they could share with this group that would help us answer your question. I guess one impression I'm forming. Is that any building that we, you know, contract to have built, um, should be fully accessible. Um, because it, it gives you a lot of freedom in over time as these populations change and age. And, you know, that you can accommodate people with lots of different, um, physical challenges. So, you know, the wide halls with the handrails and the roll in showers and plus, you know, maybe even more technology, but make a building that will, uh, change with the population served. Maybe we contract with one vendor at the beginning. And then for some reason that vendor, let's just say simply goes out of business or something. So we're looking for a new management company, you know, it, I just think having a ADA compliant building from the beginning will make us, um, much able to, more able to help a diverse population that's changing on us over time. Yeah. I agree so much with that. Um, it, it widens the, the range of population to people with more physical and developmental, et cetera, disabilities, and, and the population are going to age. The other group would might be nice to hear from as if is the, the, uh, maybe some of the constituents that people who grew up in Whalen, who have to live far away in group homes. I think there are a bunch of people in Hopkinton that have down syndrome that, uh, some of them are from Whalen or adults and, um, that are living at a distance from their families. Um, see what that, their needs might, but the, you know, the adult population and that, that are getting older that are from Whalen, what they might need. Yeah. I think, I think you're right. Um, I think when we started out, we had a general idea of, you know, helping disabled young people and, uh, you know, it's getting more and more and more complexes. We've learned more and more about this. And I have a narrow definition and it, it keeps expanding. And I feel like I'm not in a position to recommend exactly what population we should be serving. And, you know, I think, I think John's right. Ronnie would be very helpful in helping us come to some kind of conclusion. But, um, and I think it also depends on who, who would, if we put out an RFP, who would, who would build up, who would build this and staff it and, uh, supply the services. So, um, it's sort of like rolling the dice, but, um, uh, you know, I think we have to be realistic about, uh, who's gonna, who can actually build this and make this development a success. It might be helpful to start with some key things that we've learned. I mean, I was impressed by there weren't that many questions, but I wasn't actually that surprised because we've actually heard and learned a lot over the last four, you know, meetings. And so I think that sort of represented actually what we had learned, not so much that we didn't have questions. Um, but I, I think we've, um, we've learned that there's tremendous amount of need, right? So there's, um, in multiple categories and we could, we could describe like those different categories that we've identified sort of, um, in, in groups, not in super granular detail, but in groups. Um, and then I think we could maybe summarize what we've learned about fit, right? Like, so people who don't have a car and need to walk, you know, but are quite functional might not be a great fit for this location because it's kind of far away, but people who are well-supported and have transportation could actually use a lot of the Wayland resources and a pretty low barrier way. Like they wouldn't have to drive a long way. So like that might be a type of group that would fit really well. Um, and then we've learned, you know, that it's gonna be essential that there be a preexisting relationship with the funding agency for this to fly. Like, um, DDS or DMH is gonna have to be on board in some long-term commitment way for anyone to agree to build something like this or, or do it. Um, and I think we've also learned though, that there's lots of great examples of buildings that people have built that are in the way that we've been thinking. Right. Of the six to nine people well-supported ideally two in the same space. Um, although that we don't think we think that might be a problem, but we might also be able to get a special case. You never know. Um, and probably if we talk through it, we'd think of other things that we had learned. And then, um, we could begin to formulate a couple scenarios that might work and some pros and cons for each of those scenarios, and then get closer to saying something to the select board. Um, so I, um, have been looking at an apartment building that was, uh, built by Boston home, which is a organization that works with people with neurological, um, issues. And that their model seems to be completely different than most of what we've been looking at. So I'm gonna try to get them here soon to talk to us. Um, they've built next to their major facility. They've built a 32 unit, um, completely ADA compliant apartment building. And their population is people in wheelchairs. And, um, so it's basically, if you wanna live there, you have to be an adult non-smoker and you use a wheelchair. And so they've got this population that is, um, they're fairly high functioning. It, it, what I can tell so far, most of them have jobs. Um, they just, and can drive cars that are manual, manual control cars. Um, but they have a heck of a time finding someplace to live, uh, because the stairs are a barrier. Lack of an elevator is a barrier. Not being able to turn your wheelchair around in the kitchen is a barrier. Not being able to get your wheelchair into the shower is barrier. Um, and this building they've built, uh, you know, it has, uh, subsidized housing in it. Uh, anyway, I'm gonna try to get these people here soon. Um, it's just such an interesting model that I think the fact that these people, uh, could be integrated into the community and they can drive themselves around because we've got this problem with this site. Um, not being a convenient walking distance to services and we've heard this over and over again from the management companies that our site really doesn't fit their ideal model for the well-being of the people who live there. Anyway, it was just interesting to me that a model like this hadn't come up in our discussions previously. John, do you have any thoughts about that? Well, I think it might be helpful for this committee when it is putting together recommendations to inform the select board what the different types of populations. Um, and by extension, the different types of models, what that would actually, uh, translate to in terms of what's it, what, what's this, what's this eventual building going to look like? What, where are the brick and mortar, uh, what structure or structures, what are they going to look like? What's, what's the footprint going to be? Um, I would imagine Bill, Bill had to run off for a sec, but I would imagine that would be something that, that the neighbors would really be interested to, to know about. Um, and so I, I would assume that would be something also that the select board wanting to be sensitive to the neighbors would, would want to know. Um, so along similar lines, you know, depending on the population that's being served, as we've heard from all of the folks that have come through here, that's going to dictate some of those design considerations. It's going to dictate the type of traffic that is going to impact the site. You know, is it going to be half, uh, half the vehicles are staff vehicles and, um, maybe half the vehicles are resident vehicles. If they're high functioning folks that actually have a license and can drive. If we're talking about a group home, it's going to be all staff, um, along with some bands that are taking people to day programs in the morning and in the, in the afternoon. What is that going to look like in terms of, uh, the traffic flow? Um, so I think to the extent that we can help translate what the different programs, what the different populations, how that's going to equate to the bricks and mortar and the activity on, uh, on the parcel. I think those are going to be pieces of information that the select board would find helpful. I mean, if I were in their shoes and I knew nothing about the human service world or the housing needs of people with disabilities. I think that would be information that I would find helpful. So it's like a cluster analysis. Well, I would almost, I would almost, uh, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm trying to sort of envision how, how to translate this into, uh, you know, user-friendly data. I would almost, you know, have, have a sheet of, uh, that would be devoted to, okay, what, what would a group home look like? What would a group home serving, uh, adult individuals with developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, probably funded, um, and this would be part of the information that would be on the, on the sheet. That would be a model that would be funded by DDS. Um, you know, it would have, uh, for, you know, upwards of four, four, uh, full-time residents, um, could have six to seven, uh, staff, uh, that would be rotating in and out on a daily basis. Um, you know, it just, just listing all of the characteristics for that particular model and then do the same thing for say a similar, uh, program that would be serving not DDS clients, but DMH clients. What would that model look like? What would that model look like? How would the architectural needs of the one population differ, uh, for the design and architectural, uh, features that you would want to, you know, ensure went into, uh, creating a program that would serve, be serving clients served by DMH. Same thing with, um, adults with, um, on the spectrum. You know, you're talking about, for example, probably in most cases, uh, a smaller population being served because of the particular needs of that group. And again, um, I'm, I'm just sort of spitballing here, but that would be the way I would sort of, uh, go, go about, um, putting together information in a, in a user-friendly format. Um, Brian, can you say anything to us about the profile of this young adult group that's aging out of the schools, um, at 22? Like any kind of distribution of some nature in the challenges faced by these folks? Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of young people come into our senior disabled housing. I think Titua Village and Bent Park. Um, and most, a lot of times it's their first rental experience. Uh, they're leaving the home for the first time. And the, you know, the parents are done basically. Um, and so they, they, at first they seem to, you know, they seem to have, uh, they seem to function well, but as time goes on, um, they seem to lose their friends and support systems. And if there are people who are providing services to them, they can, the services are voluntary, they can, uh, refuse services. And as time goes on, they become more and more isolated. So, uh, and it's an unhappy situation. Right. And it leads to bad behaviors that really could have been prevented with a little, little intervention, very little intervention. Uh, so, I'm not sure, we're not privy to what diagnoses are out there, but, uh, we see the behaviors. And, uh, that is totally acceptable now. Gene, I'd like to, um, respond to a couple of things you said. Uh, you know, with respect, or maybe it was John, uh, with respect to the question of transportation, um, I wonder if it makes sense for us to speak to the Metro West Regional Transit Authority to see, uh, the extent to which they would be able to provide transportation on some kind of scheduled basis to, uh, a development on the site. Um, uh, as John or someone said, you know, uh, depending on the provider, maybe they would have vans, uh, or, uh, ways to, uh, uh, take the residence to, whether it's, uh, a job, a volunteer, uh, opportunity, or, uh, the library, grocery store, whatever, uh, might be well to check in with them. We've had experience with that. And, and the trouble is that they, they have a window of an hour, at least either way, you know, when they pick up and drop off people. So it's extremely difficult to use them. There was a while I had to use them to try and get JJ to and from his program in Natick. And sometimes the program would need to close and the bus wouldn't have shown up yet. Yeah. Or I'm sitting out in the dark waiting and trying to find out where that bus is. So it's, it's, it's okay for a shopping trip, but not for appointments so much or. Right. Right. Um, unless they could get on a schedule and, you know, they do have a schedule and go around. They pick people up at. It's a village and Ben park. I don't know if they could extend it out to another facility, even. And I don't know if they could stop the council on aging, the new council on aging. But if you can get on their route schedule, I think that would make a big difference. I think we could have a conversation with Joe Nolan, who's a chair of that board, who's a wayland guy and former select board member and see if we can get some attention. Um, also I had the sense that, um, to, to the point of going to the state and, and getting their take on it. I think that would be, um, helpful. Though I gather also that a number of, uh, these service providers or, uh, developers have existing relationships, uh, with the state agencies. John is, is that your experience? Yeah. I mean, they're, they're not going to proceed unless they've already done their homework and, and, and explore the viability of proceeding with, you know, the kind of investment, I think that would be necessary to, to actually, you know, do the deal. And, uh, and, and begin the, the development for sure. But again, I know it's sort of like, uh, you know, uh, chicken or egg situation where I, I do think it would be helpful for us to have a conversation with, uh, some of the folks at the state. And again, um, I, I mentioned this to, uh, that, that I'd be happy to, uh, to reach out to the DDS area office and, um, invite them to, uh, to participate. Um, but yeah, I mean, you, you, it, it, it, the vendor agencies absolutely would, would want to have some tacit approval from the state before they would proceed. They would want to know that the, the operational dollars, for example, which are sort of the, the most important thing are going to be there to, to fund the clients that are actually going to be living in the home. Right. And to your point bill on transportation, I would just point out that, um, you know, that some of the, the folks that Brian, uh, works with and sees are, are people that are typically going to be higher function individuals. They're not necessarily going to be the folks that are going to be living in a group home type setting. So I, you know, that might be the direction that we're looking to go, uh, with this particular site, but if we are really looking more at a group home, uh, model or, um, a program that's going to support people served by DMH, most of those residential contracts would come with a, uh, transportation, uh, component to it. So the person that's going to be served in a group home would have residential contract dollars. Uh, day program, uh, funded component. And they would have a separate transportation line item attached to their head. And I, I see, you know, Stephanie and Jean, you, you know, the deal, the drill. So, um, that would be a contract with a, with a transportation vendor like Tommy's taxi. Um, and, and they, they, it would be their job to pick those folks up every day and bring them to their day program and back home at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. So we could certainly talk to, um, you know, the regional transportation authority, but, um, that, that would be part of the bargain of, of serving, uh, folks, for example, like said in a group home, uh, model. I, I guess the other, um, sort of category of, uh, people out there are, uh, people who are essentially private pay. Uh, and I believe we did have one group that came in and said that, uh, they would, uh, not necessarily rely on direct state assistance, uh, for, uh, operating support, but rather, uh, there would be rent that is charged and they might seek, uh, a section eight voucher, or, or, and with the family, uh, supplementing that. So that's, that's another model we might consider. Uh, and also it's a four acre site. We, uh, talked about the fact that, uh, the town planners identified that it's possible to create two parcels, uh, of the four acres. So, uh, you know, particularly, uh, if, if we were to go, uh, the DDS route with, uh, you know, a restriction of four or five residents, no more than, um, if, if you, if the site were also occupied by somebody, a private pay kind of approach, then, uh, maybe you don't run afoul of, of that state regulation. We can serve a few more people. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm certainly hoping we can find a way to serve more people. It just seems a four acre site and end up with serving five or 10 people. It seems like a shame. Um, in terms of community acceptance, there's community acceptance issues about how the building looks or buildings look, how big they are, whether they look like a residential home. Um, and then there's community acceptance of the individuals who live in the property. Um, my guess is the toughest sell on the, the human beings is people who, um, have had a history of, uh, mental illness that led to, let's say antisocial behavior or drug use. Um, uh, you know, so when we, some of the vendors we've talked to do work with that kind of population. Uh, so this becomes a question of, you know, which kind of challenges do the selectmen want to wade into, do they want to wade into, you know, problems where there'll be difficulty in community acceptance of the individuals being served? Are they will more or less willing to wade into the challenges of putting perhaps larger buildings than something that looks like a, you know, four bedroom ranch house? Um, I'm not quite sure how to help the selectmen with those issues. And everyone goes quiet. Um, those are definitely tough questions. I mean, ideally we would find some balance, right? Between the neighborhood and, um, what's the right thing to do too. There's more or more accommodations that have been made for adults for disabilities. So, um, if he gets to the top of the section of the list and you guys don't know. Someone's speaking. I've not, you know, a living situation for him or someone else has been living with him. Yeah. I don't know. There might be a background for me. Yep. There you go. That's it. Thanks Brian. So I'll, can I throw one, one other thing out? Please do. So I'm familiar with a, a parent lives in an adjacent town. Uh, she has a 30 something year old, um, adult son living in a fixed site, uh, section eight, uh, affordable apartment. And she's looking to purchase a, uh, a residence to serve her son. So she gets person centered dollars from DDS. Yes. She is funded quite, quite generously by DDS standards to provide for, uh, staffing for her son who does go to a day program, but he's pretty limited. Um, and he is the sort of typical, uh, person on the autism spectrum. He's nonverbal who is not going to thrive in a group environment. He is the type of person that you, you will, you would want to probably serve in a standalone structure. In other words, not in a, uh, a unit, uh, with somebody on the left and somebody on the right, because he's noisy. He's noisy and that he is echolaic, which is re repetitive speech. He sometimes jumps up and down. So if he, if you're living above him or below him, that's not going to work. So she's literally looking for a standalone residence in a community like Wayland, um, to purchase with, with her own, uh, funds out of pocket. And he would be served in that home using DDS dollars moving forward. So would that be an opportunity? Um, would that be an option? John, are you saying that there would be a single unit? Um, it would be, uh, what she would be looking for, what she is currently looking for. She's looking for homes with two or three bedrooms so that there could be, uh, a paid staff that she would, that would be paid out of his person centered funding, uh, which is something that's attached to him wherever he ends up in Massachusetts. Uh, so that person would be, would be probably living there with him and would be supported by part-time staff who would come in, um, when that person wasn't, quote unquote, on the clock. It's, it's, it's a new model that DDS. I, I, I'm not an expert, but, uh, if we had, uh, the DDS area director, she could speak, uh, more about the, the, the type of model that I'm describing here, but it would essentially be, uh, one person served in, in a, in a home, um, supported by staff. And she's willing to, to purchase a home or potentially even build a home from scratch. And she's, she's not alone. I mean, there are other, there are other parents of adult, uh, people that are on the spectrum that sort of fall, fall into this category. There's not a lot of people in the Commonwealth, but there, there are people, uh, similar to her, um, with family members that sort of fit the same description. Yeah. I've, I've sort of wondered about if there is a model and for lack of a better word, I'll call it a condominium complex. Because not, not all of the people who face these challenges, uh, lack financial means, um, but end up with this, a particularly interesting problem where this person will be rejected by others because he's noisy, you know? Um, so with, uh, uh, it's like, um, mini, mini house, tiny house model of a community of tiny houses, where they're organized as condominiums and the families actually purchased them. Um, and maybe there's a management group that provides variety of services to these individuals in their mini houses. I'm just thinking of when I was in, uh, Lahaina, Hawaii a while ago, that, that community burned down. And so they built these tiny house communities for people to live in until the, the town is rebuilt, you know? And it seemed to be working. People did what they needed to do and lived in their tiny house. Um, are there models like that where people buy a condominium unit in a shared care kind of community? I think it's not unusual for, uh, you know, parents or families to, uh, get together and, and create a, uh, a group living situation. Um, this course would be new construction, uh, which might be, uh, a little daunting for, uh, uh, a few families getting together to do. Um, but it's another possibility. I think it still would require a commitment from DDS or someplace like that because the money is, is substantial, right? So, um, they would have to partner and agree to support something for a period of time to make it viable, I would think. But, um, Well, we did have that group, uh, who, uh, are modeling, uh, their, uh, uh, proposal or, or desire on, uh, you know, the outfit in, uh, Western mass, uh, which as far as I know, wasn't relying on, uh, DDS operating subsidies per se. So. I think that's a big thing though. DDS would probably be pretty specific about the kind of living arrangements they'd be willing to be involved with funding. And also the question where there's, you know, if the family might be able to buy something, but what happens 20, 30 years down the road and the family isn't there anymore to continue to support the person. Right. Mm-hmm. No, it would, the person would have to have DDS or some similar kind of funding in perpetuity. Well, a lot of, there, there are people like the, the, um, person that I was just describing who have what, what's called person centered funding. Mm-hmm. And that funding is essentially an effort by the department to provide, uh, more individualized programming for a person that wouldn't fit into a traditional residential model. And that funding would be, like I said, would, would carry through, uh, when mom and dad are no longer around and it would be attached to that person wherever that person, uh, ended up living. And in the case of the, the individual in the family that I was describing, the, the, the mom and dad are very sophisticated. Uh, they have worked this all out with a state planners so that, um, you know, wherever their son ends up living, um, their own personal funds mixed with the funding that will be coming in from the state to provide for the staffing, uh, for example, to support the, uh, the son. Um, that's, that's all been worked out, but from like, like Bill, you were saying, I mean, it's been, or sorry, Bill Adams, you, what you were saying, I mean, it's a daunting thing for, for most families, right? I mean, you guys know, uh, to try to think about, oh my gosh, am I really going to get involved in, uh, HR issues with, with a whole, uh, you know, uh, group of people that I have to hire or fire. Exactly. It's, it's really, I mean, it's a tough thing to suddenly step into that. And that's why so many families, right? I mean, you guys know this, so many families rely on agencies to, to do this because they've got the infrastructure, they, they've got the expertise. They've been doing this for, for decades. So, um, I mean, there, there are pros and cons to that. You give up control, but which is, you know, the downside, but the upside can also be, you give up control because you don't want to have to deal with all the headaches that go along with that. And in talking to these groups, one thing I've taken away is that there is, there's some really good, um, it's important to be big enough to, um, have some flexibility. If you're small and vulnerable, there's just so much uncertainty in this world. That, uh, you're going to be in a much tougher shape than if you're part of a larger group where you, when your nurse can't show up or quits, you know, you can bring in a nurse from somewhere else and you don't have to start from scratch every time. So being a certain size, I think would be a real plus in terms of sustainability and viability. Well, I want to say that this one thing you described isn't possible and it's admirable, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, the, the good thing I've learned is that probably the novice in this group is that there are many great providers in the Commonwealth, experienced well staff tied into the funding streams. So we're not going to struggle to find somebody who could do a great job with deep experience and good resources. Maybe back to John, do you think that, that young adult could only live in a single house? Or could a, a residence be designed that would have enough space that it could support him? But he, um, is, is it possible to have a flexible model where not everyone is packed together, where there's some flexibility there? Maybe not. It's too much to ask. It's too much to ask. I don't think so. I mean, he's, he's very loud, very, very, um, has a lot of verbal outbursts. He's, he's not violent. Uh, he's, he's not somebody that I think, for example, he, you would have to worry about the, the neighbors would be concerned about. But if, if you're living immediately adjacent to him, you're not going to, it's, it's. Yeah. You, you, you're going to hear him. Um, and that's a challenge to serve that population. Does he have a person who lives with him in the home too? So it's him and, and, um, he does. Yeah. But again, he's got the, the, that one person can't be with him to support him all the time. He does go to a day program, but even when it's home, that, um, live in person has support staff also. Yeah. And he's funded, uh, to the point where, uh, DDS pays for all of this. So it's a very robust program, um, that they fund and the, the, the mom and dad basically oversee it. Yeah. I, you know, this is an interesting situation for an accessory dwelling unit, some sort of situation where if the parents can build, building, uh, a house that's maybe used in another way with an accessory dwelling unit that the son lives in. And maybe there's services provided to both housing units. Um, well, the mom and dad, interestingly enough, we're looking at that gene and they're looking at. An accessory accessory dwelling unit that they would live in because the staff needs to be in the home. So the bedrooms, the multi bedroom unit needs to be for the son, not, not the mom and dad, the mom and dad are happy to live in the accessory dwelling unit. Right. And, uh, you know, like we haven't figured out how we're going to do special permits here in Wayland yet for accessory dwelling units, but I think that's going to happen. And I suspect that they'll be allowed up to 50% of the footprint of the major dwelling unit on the property once we get it figured out. So they could, they could live in an accessory dwelling unit. I hope that would not be too restricted inside. Well, um, getting back to the agenda. I hate to do that. Well, it's wonderful to have some time for discussion because we haven't, you know, till now. Well, in fact, we have plenty of time, uh, because, uh, Steve Merritt has not joined us and, uh, Ronnie Kessler is not due until 1 PM. Oh, I am here. Oh, you are there. Great. Well, thank you for joining us. Um, Do you have the voucher? No. Um, I apologize. Uh, Yeah. Your, uh, uh, the named, uh, Tom Fay comes up on, on the zoom. So, uh, uh, for whatever reason, uh, but anyway, um, Mr. Merritt, thank you for joining us. Uh, uh, Mr. Merritt is the former interim, uh, director of the, uh, Wellesley Housing Authority. Uh, as, uh, I'm sure Tom Fay explained to you, we have, uh, a committee here that is, uh, working to develop recommendations for the Weyland Select Board as to the disposition of a four-acre parcel of land, uh, for, that, uh, we hope will be developed for, uh, people, uh, housing for people with disabilities. And, uh, uh, uh, I wonder, Mr. Merritt, if you can tell us about your experience in that area. Well, we, um, well, I was the director of the Norwood Housing Authority for almost 20 years. And, uh, we did develop, uh, with a developer, uh, a house, uh, using Section 8 programming money. Um, the developer developed it. We partnered by placing, uh, eight vouchers, uh, into the home, uh, which, you know, pay the rent, um, guarantee the rent. And, uh, and he partnered with a, um, at the time, Jewish Family and Children's Services, a social service provider. Um, so we were able to provide that home for, for eight individuals with intellectual disabilities. Uh, Jack Roach then, uh, built, he had another house that he was looking to sell individually. And he built two more next to it and went into an expanded program, um, with, uh, JF and CS, um, with, uh, I think there were seven or eight per house. So, um, that was, uh, they were privately funded at the beginning, um, through the families. And, um, they, uh, now I understand many of them, if not close to 80% or 90% of them have Section 8 vouchers. Um, again, that are, because they applied at the time they moved in and it just takes time to come off the waiting list. And, you know, Brian's aware of that stuff and Brian's a colleague for a long time. So I want to say hi to Brian before we move on. But, um, I was listening to you, your conversation earlier. Um, and you mentioned, uh, DDS providing funding. We've had difficulty with DDS getting funding. So I'm, that was nice to hear that they're doing some of that additional funding. I know there has been a shift over the last, uh, few years, uh, because at the time we, we did this construction. Well, we didn't do the construction. The time we were doing these programming, um, they were insistent on, on, uh, their model, which, um, limited the number of people. So like where Jack, um, developed his three units of three buildings at Wilson street, they wouldn't allow more than, uh, I think it was five or six people per, per unit. Um, and I know they've since, uh, changed that. They actually took over, um, managed, uh, running the program at one of his, at a fourth building in Walpole that, that they, uh, built. Um, so there are some models out there, uh, and they're supervised, but not necessarily 24. Well, there's somebody that 24 seven, but they're not necessarily full of medical supervision or anything. So, um, the people tend to, uh, you know, have more freedom. They get out and go to work and things like that. So there are some programs out there, uh, and bringing that, that sandwich of funding together is, is the tricky part. Um, so, um, I know you have an opportunity in Whale and to, uh, develop a, um, the type of building. It would have, uh, a home strength, intellectual, disabled, disabled people. And I know somebody said that, you know, it doesn't just affect people of lower income. It affects people of all incomes. And so there are some families that can provide, but it's always looking forward to the end game when parents aren't around anymore. And I know that, that was one of the things you were talking about too. So it's, it's a real multifaceted program to be put together. I was thrilled to hear that. It sounds like the state is supporting some of the, some of that work. I forget who was mentioning it. I think John was, um, that, um, because, you know, to, to have a unit or a house for one person, and then to have staffing there. That's, I haven't heard that, that they would make that kind of commitment. So I'm not sure if that's doable, but behaviors of an intellectually disabled, disabled person can be. I don't want to say control because that's not the word, but they can be adjusted to and buildings can be constructed or, or, you know, units can be segregated to the point where the noise is not the biggest issue. It's, um, and socialization can be a positive thing. Uh, I know at Wilson street, there's been several stories of real positive socialization between the residents and even the neighbors, the private neighbors. So, um, it, it's not like you just, oh, here's a house and you know, you move your son into it and that's it. And we're going to staff it forever. I would have, I'd be real reluctant to believe anybody on that. Cause at some point somebody's down the line, it could be 10 years down the line. The state's going to say, wait, we can't do this anymore. And then force that person into, into a group type of facility. So, um, you're at a point here where the building is, you're looking to build on this property. And, um, you know, it's finding a, uh, I assume finding a developer that would, that would be willing to partner with the town. Um, exactly. Is that really, that's right. It's a, it's a vacant piece of land. And, uh, it's not contemplated that the town would develop this, but rather we would, uh, anticipate that the, uh, select board would issue an RFP, uh, for, uh, developer slash service provider, uh, to, uh, provide the housing. Um, yeah, that, that would be one way to do it. Or the town could declare it access and allow the housing authority to do that type of RFP as well. Right. Um, that's where you have more, a little more expertise in the housing. Um, we, uh, we, we presently have, uh, a vote of the town meeting that authorizes the select board to dispose of the property on terms and conditions it deems appropriate. So we need to go back to the town meeting, uh, which is good. Um, and obviously, uh, Brian is an important member of this committee. And so, uh, we're really trying to work together and draw on the expertise of Brian and, and John and, uh, Jean and others. And Bill is here representing, uh, the, uh, interests of the neighbors, but also is a physician working with, uh, children, uh, many of whom I guess have, uh, challenges as well. So, uh, we think we have a good group. Um, other questions of, uh, Mr. Merritt about his, uh, very interesting project in Norwood. I think it's, it's, uh, very interesting that you have, it seems like a more independent model less dependent on the state, which, which is interesting because whenever you get the state involved, you definitely lose control. But, uh, I, you know, I think as far as long-term, uh, stability, we're probably going to have to get in, get the state involved as a practical matter. Yeah. Brian, the, some of the money that the individuals get does come through the state, but it goes to the individual or to the service provider. Um, and there are programs that I'm not fully, uh, up on, but, um, you know, there are requirements that they've always enforced. Uh, you know, and COVID was a major challenge because there had to be a certain number of hours that the service provider was there in order to get paid. But during COVID, a lot of the families took the young people home, um, because of the situation. So that created, you know, some, some, uh, logistical problems. And it seems like coming out of COVID, the state is a little bit more open to newer ideas. Um, so there's, there is state money into it, but as I said, the, um, the rental part. Um, became, uh, section eight, we did an RFP on, uh, for a developer and a, and a serve, with a service provider partner in order to do project-based vouchers. Um, at, at, um, at our first building, what we call the yellow house. But since then that the other three buildings that Jack had built and converted, um, they all started out with private pay and then, um, people were applying for. Section eight vouchers. And that takes a long time, but when you're there a long time, and these young people are going to need the housing for a long time, you do get there. Um, and I know I had to, we had people with vouchers from other housing authorities. That I would get the calls and say, well, how do you do it? How do you do this within the program? We'd have to educate them on, on how we were able to do it. We never got a no from HUD. Everything was either yes, or they didn't, they didn't offer an opinion. Um, so I know that the program's working again. Again, those eight units are project-based, but the units at Wilson are more, uh, individual, um, participants that have the voucher. Did you have an excess of, uh, eight, uh, vouchers that you could direct to this site? Or, uh, I'm just curious how, how that was, uh, able to be accomplished. Yeah, we, we had, um, roughly 300 vouchers. Um, they were fully, fully occupied. So it was through attrition. We were able to gain some, uh, over the course of a year for that purpose. Um, so it, you know, we did have some vouchers that would allow that. I mean, some housing authorities have very few vouchers and that would take forever to try to get the, um, the voucher back. But, uh, uh, and, you know, HUD was not issuing new vouchers at the time. Although they did come out with a, uh, funding proposal or a NOFA, I want to say around 2017 or so, 2018 maybe. Um, and they did issue some vouchers specifically for, uh, individuals with disabilities. Um, we also had a, um, federal property that, um, in order to, um, make it declared, uh, elderly only. Uh, we had to help fly through HUD and HUD gave us that permission, but they also, they back loaded us with some vouchers that were specific for younger individuals. So there's, I think there's 30 of those in our, in our 300. So we had some dedicated vouchers for younger disabled persons. Um, so we were able to kind of call it together. Um, and, uh, it, it takes creativity and it changes every, you know, every year is a little bit different, but, uh, um, and is there a particular service provider, uh, who, uh, works with the residents? Yeah. It changed from, uh, Jewish family and children's services because they turned away from the program back. I want to say 10 years ago. And we went through a search with Jack and his family, uh, for a new service provider. And, um, it took a while, but we did come up with a, uh, uh, company out of, uh, Newton. Hmm. His name escapes me right now, but, um, and they're doing, now they're doing the Wilson street. Um, there's a fourth house in Walpole is being done through a different provider that it was that, um, that Jay did. They just took that over about a year ago. Um, I know Chris Ferguson is, is now, uh, running the company. Jack passed away, unfortunately a few years ago, but, uh, Chris is his son-in-law and Chris's wife is Jack's daughter. And they're keeping the family going. They, the, uh, business going. And, uh, I know he came with me to a meeting in Wayland, the first meeting we had, or we came together. Um, so it's something that he's also addressing in doing. Um, it was, it was always his father-in-law's legacy to, to do something for somebody. And he started out wanting to do things for elderly folks. And we kind of turned them into, uh, an advocate for people with intellectual disabilities. So. Great. We were fortunate there. How, how does the, uh, how do the finances work? Uh, I, I gather the residents pay what they can afford to pay under section eight. And do the families provide the balance? And is there a separate charge for the services, uh, provided by the service provider? Yeah. Yeah. So the, the, the rent is, um, if people have the voucher or if they're in our project base, they pay 30% of their income, uh, for the rent. And the housing authority receives HUD funding for the rest. Um, the, uh, private, the man, the, uh, service provider gets paid either through state funding, through a couple of their programs. But there's also some contribution from the family as well to that point of it, the, the, the service provider family doesn't have to pay any of the rent that's taken from the income. Uh, you know, the individual may have social security. Uh, so there's some, uh, rent comes from that and the, uh, the HUD funding. Bill, did you have a question? I had a couple. So for these individuals, they're still fairly independent, right? They don't need one-to-one staffing support or, um, there doesn't need to be additional housing for the people who support them. Or does there is additional, there is a unit in each of the buildings for a cert for a provider. So even the yellow house has a two bedroom, um, two bedrooms, not two bedrooms. It's an old Victorian, uh, big old Victorian and new in Norwood. Um, and the other buildings were built with a, an apartment for, um, a live in, um, not necessarily an aid because it was a model was that they, there'd be a, um, someone living there and be there overnight, but they weren't required during the day because the day service is provided by other, other, uh, social service providers. Or may, in many cases, the, um, the client goes out to service providers as well during the day. And are there in your experience, are there a lot of developers interested in doing this type of work? Or is it, um, kind of a unicorn phenomenon? Like you find these special people who you have to search hard, but you fight, but they're there. Um, like how, how, how does it actually work in real life? I, you know, it's, it's, it's, there aren't a whole lot, but there are more unicorns than one might think, if you will. I mean, there are people, um, particularly when you're dealing with the principles of some companies who have, have this desire to do something positive. I mean, it's kind of remarkable because you don't see that in their everyday business, but if you can get to the individuals that, that control, you know, many times their family, uh, you know, long-time family companies. Um, and, uh, uh, I mean, Jack came to us looking to do something different and we were able to model it to this, this model. Um, there are others out there that, that have a, um, I mean, it basically comes down to everybody knows somebody who either is disabled or has a disabled relative. So you kind of play on that with, um, you know, and, and see if you can get someone to come into a deal. I mean, that's, and it's, I think it's happening more, uh, w we were copied by, um, a group out of, again, out of Newton and, uh, Malden. They went into Malden, uh, and the, the principal there, who is not there, was actually a former state official in, in the Department of Housing and Community Development. And, uh, you know, he'd come out and, and check us out and see what we were doing. And they modeled it after that, um, after us and, and were successful in, in, uh, I believe three houses or three buildings that they have, um, in the morning. Steve, thanks for, um, speaking to us today. Um, I was just curious, were your hands tied in terms of any kind of local preference? And, um, if not, how did you, how did you address that? Um, there is, uh, yeah, particularly with the, the section eight that you can't, you can have a local preference, but it can't be complete. Um, but how you address it is you're, you are local. Um, and, uh, um, there was never any, in Norway that we didn't have local people that weren't served. I don't, I, you know, we would, we maintain the waitlist for our project based units. Um, and the waitlist is always very low. I mean, there's only a few people on it. Um, we don't over promote it, uh, but it's, it's certainly available in public information. Um, and, uh, it, um, uh, it, it was never a big problem. Sometimes it'd be a little bit of a wait for a couple of people, but it always did. There'd be some opportunity at some point. Cause there is some change over people don't just go into these homes and stay there forever. They, you know, especially when Jack had the other two, there were some people that wanted to move into the private housing. And if they had a voucher, they were able to do that. Um, uh, again, and many of them were private pay as well. Um, so I, I wouldn't say a handcuff, but there are some restrictions. Definitely. Definitely. You know, and they can apply for, for vouchers in the, in the municipality they live in, in Massachusetts. All local housing authorities can administer their vouchers anywhere in the state, which is a unique to Massachusetts. But, um, so that helps, like we had vouchers from, from Natick and from, uh, um, we had one from Whalen, but we had one from maybe a Ford's Whalen, uh, that would come in. Those are the ones I remember and, uh, having to deal with, um, you know, the staffing to explain to them how to, how to run the paperwork through to get the, uh, approvals. You gotta be creative. And, and you know, I, I had a director in Cambridge once I worked there for a number of years and his, his, um, he would always teach us this. You don't take no, don't take no for an answer. You just keep pushing. And he dealt with HUD a lot. And, and, um, so we were really successful at doing it. And, uh, but it was a good lesson to learn. So you just, cause the first thing you get back is no. And then, you know, if you walk away, they win. If you don't walk away, the resident wins. And, um, you know, these residents are going to need assistance for the rest of their lives in most cases, particularly when the parents or guardians are no longer available. I have one last question, which is, did, uh, did the housing authority or the town own the property or did the developer own it? The developer owned it. Okay. And still does. Yep. So the housing authority is a partner for this, for the subsidy, but, um, we were not partnered for the, uh, property. So. Other questions of Mr. Barrett. Maybe related to that. Does, did the town put, um, requirements for owning that land? Like what if the, it becomes not sustainable and the developer decides to do something big with it or something like, are there, what are the restrictions from the town in terms of what could happen in the future? Uh, no, no, no, didn't put any restrictions on it. In fact, the, um, the first building and then subsequently the other three were all, um, approved by the building department through the, uh, Dover amendment. Cause there are educational aspects to it. And, um, you, and, um, it fit under the Dover amendment. So that this really kind of bypasses most of the zoning, uh, requirements. Um, I mean, there are some, but it, it does bypass. What happens, this is sort of a technical question. What, what would happen to a program that was cited and, uh, under the Dover amendment. If, if there was a change of use, I'm, I'm asking anybody here, has that ever happened? I mean, does, does that essentially protect that, uh, that, that use, or does, does it restrict the ability to use that parcel in perpetuity? If it, if it was developed under Dover? And I'm not an expert on it, but I would think the Dover. So I, um, the Dover amendment is kind of geared at the, the living situation. So in our yellow house, you had basically eight unrelated persons living in the house. Um, so that was covered under the Dover amendment, but local bylaws may limit that to, you know, two or three or something. Um, so if it changed usage and all of a sudden it's not, the Dover amendment is not, um, applicable, then there'd have to be a reduction in, um, in the number of people there. You couldn't rent out the eight rooms like a rooming house, unless you went and got a different, uh, uh, permit. You probably need it. So that might almost be a built in safeguard. Sure. Together with the possibility of deed restrictions or conditions of a ground lease. Yeah. Well, um, Mr. Mayor, we really appreciate your insight. This is really, uh, a very interesting model. And, uh, you're obviously, uh, knowledgeable about how these things are put together. Uh, and I'm particularly persuaded by your advice of, uh, don't take no for an answer. Uh, that that's, that's great. So, um, anyway, so, uh, thank you very much, uh, for your time. And, uh, it's really been interesting. Sure. If, if I can do anything or if we can, if you wanted to arrange a visit, um, I'm sure if you had a hold of Chris and we could, uh, you know, run a visit to the sites and kind of get, um, firsthand talk to people that are there and stuff. Um, and, and to the landlord, Chris. Thank you, Steve. Good to see you. Good to see you. See if we can get you some more work, Ryan. Always. All right. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. We are joined by Ronnie Kessler, Director of Student Services and the Title IX Coordinator for the Wayland Public Schools. Uh, good afternoon. Hi. I don't, I just realized my name says Thomas Faye. Sorry. I don't, I'm not quite sure why, but, um, here, I'll try to rename myself. Hello, everyone. We, we had that confusion with, uh, Mr. Merritt. So, uh, there we go. Great. Well, um, thank you so much for joining us. Um, I'm sure you and Tom have, uh, chatted. Uh, I'm Bill Whitney, a member of the select board and, uh, pinch hitting for Tom as he is, uh, tied up. Um, and I'm sure he described to you the purpose of this committee is to make recommendations to the select board about, uh, housing for people, uh, with disabilities. And we're particularly interested in the, the whole phenomenon of, uh, students aging out. Um, and, uh, Tom thought you would be a particularly valuable resource, uh, to let us give us your insight about, uh, uh, uh, the extent to which, uh, you, you see this, uh, what your experience has been and, and, uh, what advice you might have for this committee. Sure. Um, so I can, in terms of aging out, um, students are eligible. Some students are eligible for special education services from age three to 22. Um, you know, it's typical for students to graduate high school and, um, go on to college or work or, um, and they, and their education and their special education services at 18. However, there are, um, a group of adults of students, um, who require services beyond graduation, beyond 18. So, um, special education can go from 18 to 22. Um, and those are typically transition programs. They're typically for students with intellectual impairments, potentially autism, some students who may have missed a lot of school due to emotional disabilities, um, who are working towards their diploma and some who are working towards just learning life skills, um, job skills, things like that. At 22, um, students are no longer eligible for special education services. Um, a lot of parents actually have said it feels like falling off a cliff because up until 22 from your, since your child was three, especially if you have a child with a pretty significant disability, the school is, um, it's, it's not an entitlement. It's a, it's a, it's, it's, you have to provide it, right? It's a, uh, it's an entitlement. I'm sorry. Um, so students are entitled to these services up until 22, and we have laws and regulations. And when students hit 22, they are often referred to agencies like DDS, developmental disability services or DMH, Department of Mental Health. And those services are really based on funding, um, and they're not entitled to them. They can get them, but they have to apply for them. And there's a lot of wait lists, especially since the pandemic, there's a lot of wait lists. Um, and they're also wherever you get a spot. So if you're a student who, if your child has like a significant intellectual impairment or autism and requires like a residential facility, and they have been maybe residential all through, you know, up until their, you know, for how many years, but up until 22, then at 22, they have, they, um, could be eligible for DDS, um, services, but you don't know where that's going to be. Um, you know, there's some around, they're all over the state. Um, but it's the spots are very coveted. So when you've got one, you, you kind of take it. So you don't know necessarily where you're going to go. Um, also, um, DDS services, like the, so in, in special education, we have laws and regulations. So like if a parent doesn't sign something or do something like I'm going to follow up with them. DDS, um, if you don't follow up, you're not going to get the services. So, um, it's really on the parent. If they're the guardian or the student to really follow up, um, with them, because if you don't, then they don't, they're not, the services aren't entitled. So, um, as a school district, we fill out something called a 688 referral when a student is close to aging out. So we get them in the queue for services that they'll need. And we start inviting those agencies to meetings so we can kind of start that transition. But once they hit 22, um, they're, you know, um, the school district is no longer involved. So it is a pretty big, um, need in the, especially since the pandemic, it's a big need. Um, but also, um, like I said, there's a lot of wait lists and things and, um, it's, it's difficult. You know, if you have a child who, um, has a significant disability, they may be living, you know, further away from you and that can be hard. So that's just a little background into what that age 22 means and why it's so, um, you hear it a lot. Sure. Thank you. Stephanie, go ahead. A little question. I might've missed it, but, um, but in terms of the percentages of kids coming through the next few years or the last few years that you've seen, what are they primarily would, would be the type of population that would, would need this kind this kind of, um, like what would might need a group home or residential, um, services in the area. Um, so, um, we have a small percentage in Wayland. Um, we just started an 18 to 22 program actually at Wayland high school. And then we have a small group of students who are outplaced at placements, but, um, I think I shared a chart with Tom a while ago of like the numbers. Um, it's not, we don't have a huge population here in Wayland of, um, students who would need this level of support. Our surrounding districts, Framingham, Natick, Wellesley have larger need as, um, than we do. But, um, you know, we do have a, a group, um, of, of, of students. Um, it's not, it's not huge. I can get the exact numbers. It also is based on like, you know, there's a couple of kids aging out this year. There'll be a couple of kids aging out next year. Um, and so forth. Okay. Do you have, um, a special, or any separated classrooms for, you know, at least for part of the day? And, and who was in those classrooms? Sure. Um, at, um, elementary school at Clay Pit, um, we have, um, a couple of different programs. We have a program called Milestones. That's for our students with more significant, um, needs with autism, who primarily communicate with a, um, device. Um, and they're really fully sub separate. And then we have another program called Achieve, which also has students with autism and other disabilities. And they are kind of partial inclusion. They have some inclusion and they have some sub separate. And then we have a program there for students with emotional disabilities. Um, same thing and language based disability, same thing. And then those programs move up and we have them at the middle school and the high school. The populations change slightly as kids grow. So, um, our population at the middle school right now is we don't have any kids there who are fully sub separate. Um, those kids, um, all of the students there, um, do have our art full or partially included. We don't have any full sub separate. Um, we do have a couple of high school and we do have a clay pit next year. That may change based as kids move. Ronnie, thanks for joining us today. And, uh, thanks for your past support. And Ronnie helped, uh, Brian and I put to put the, um, our, our white paper together. So thanks again for your, your past contributions. Um, when you were talking about sort of, you know, the, the characterization of all the kids that are in the pipeline, you know, the go going, um, you know, taking into account all the years. Right. Um, what I'm sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to, how to phrase this question. Does that include when, when you're describing that there's not a lot of folks that are, that are in the pipeline that would be looking for this kind of a residential model? Does that include, uh, anybody that's currently being served, who's being served out of district? Um, so when I'm thinking about it, I am including the students who are out of district. So, you know, when I'm thinking about this, I don't know anybody who's aged out prior, so I don't know anybody, you know, I, this is my third year in Wayland. So I don't really know anybody who, if they had aged before that time, or I don't have that history. Um, but I am, we have a, about, you know, less than 40 kids out of district. So, um, there's a handful less than five, but, um, probably about five who would, um, require this type of, you know, services. Um, and they probably aging out in the next four to five years, three to five years. I mean, was, is it fair to say that they'd be probably, um, kids that are, that are, uh, more profoundly disabled than the kids are being served in district? Do you think it would be helpful for, for this committee to hear from some of those families? Yeah, probably. Um, yeah, I can reach out to some of the families, um, and, you know, see about if they would be interested in touching, conducting with all of you. Because I think we're, one of the things that we're trying to do is to, to sort of conduct as, as much as we can try to conduct an audit of what the needs of our own community would be. And then perhaps, uh, expand outwards to contiguous communities, um, if, if need be. But I think it would be really helpful for, for this group anyway, to, to get some sense of what the needs are, um, within the town of Wayland. And I, I would think, you know, my, my natural inclination would be to, to talk to the families. I mean, who better to, to ask that question of, of, would be, would be the families of kids that are, that are going to be aging out soon. Um, people that are probably, um, more profoundly disabled, um, um, or would be the, the, the typical, um, person that we would probably envision being served in this, this kind of, uh, a program. Mm-hmm. I can reach out to, um, the families and see if anybody would be interested and, um, get them in touch with you. Um, I mean, I don't, I don't speak for the committee, but do, do other people feel like that would be helpful? Yeah, I think, um, get a handle on who we should be serving and what, what population, what's feasible to, to, uh, means, you know, some populations may not be feasible in this community, but, um, there may be some. Um, needs that are manageable within the context of what we're trying to do. Yeah, I can kind of, um, get in touch with a wide range of parents and, um, get them in touch with you. That would be great. I think Tom would be the logical point of contact. Mm-hmm. But I had a question. Um, one priority for this group is to try to keep these individuals close to their families. Um, and, um, from either your past experience or you're maybe not even specifically for Wayland, is that a difficult thing, um, to keep people close to their families in terms of, um, availability and supply? And then I guess related to that, um, is have you ever heard of any sort of regional approach where three or four towns might get together and partner to take care of these individuals? Um, where one town might have availability and another might not, or is it just too unique? Each situation is kind of unique and it doesn't really lend itself to that. Um, but to your first question, yes. Um, you know, it can really vary. So basically DDS will get, you know, I'll make a referral to DDS. The parents will fill out an application and this is typically starting, you know, four years before they're aging out. I mean, that's how far out we're trying to, um, start getting kids on wait lists, um, for programs. So, um, and to secure funding for them. Um, so, um, as it starts to get closer, then DDS reaches out to different places to see about what the weight is. And, you know, it can be far, um, you know, you don't want, if you get a spot somewhere and it's, you know, an hour away, you don't often parents want to take it because, you know, maybe they like the program and it looks good. And, and they would feel comfortable having their child there, but it's an hour away, um, and the likelihood of finding somewhere that's closer may happen, but it may take a couple years. Um, so yeah, you can often be pretty far, um, can also be, um, you know, our goal is to keep kids in district and in their environment, or at least close by in schools. And if you're going then to a completely different community, um, that's a whole, you know, that's a big change. Think about anybody, but with, uh, um, with kids with, you know, who are very routine and their surroundings and then it's all changed. So that can be really difficult. Um, I don't know of partnering, but I think it's a great idea. Um, I think, especially since we are such a small town, um, you would, um, I think it would be great to be able to partner with other districts. Um, and, uh, you know, see, um, how we can help as a, as a community, even beyond Wayland. But, um, I don't, um, I don't have like information on anybody who's done in the past. Thanks. Other questions of Ronnie? Well, thank you. We really appreciate your taking the time and, uh, uh, as well as, uh, for the important work that you do, um, working with these families, uh, four years in advance. Uh, sounds daunting, but it sounds like something you really have to do, uh, given, uh, the complexity and limited availability of, uh, these programs. Um, can I just ask if Ronnie, what would you do if you were on this committee? What would you recommend? Oh, um, I mean, I do think talking to the parents is a really good idea. Um, I think, um, maybe, maybe to Bill's point around, um, reaching out. Um, like I know for instance, Wellesley just started, um, a transition, a really robust program college. Um, so I don't know if they have like a bigger population and what they're doing. Um, but given your experience with the high school community, what, what do you see is the biggest need for the Wayland's kids in the Wayland school system? Um, what would you focus your attention on? Um, I, I would think about places where the, like, where your, where student or adult, I guess, um, would be able to live and, um, with support. And be able to have access to their community. Um, what would that population look like? Who, what's the biggest need that you're seeing? In terms of like. Disability. Uh, it's intellectually impaired and autism. Um, I would say, uh, they go pretty hand in hand, but, um, um, autism is probably maybe bigger. Um, that's a big popular, that, that's probably. The, the highest. Yeah. I need students with autism. Thank you. Yep. Oh, I can't hear you. Well, Jean, are you muted? Can't hear you. No, you're muted. Now, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. There was a cat on my computer. Um, are there many Wayland kids up at Corwin Russell? Uh, no. Okay. Just wondered. Um, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think they have quite a few autistic children. Um, yeah. Corwin Russell is a small school. Um, it's an approved out of district school. Um, it focuses mostly with students. Um, well, um, with more social pragmatics. They do have autism diagnosis, but, um, more, um, difficulty with like social skills, perspective taking as a, and they're all like, so students, they are very, are verbal and they're pretty high achieving, but that social piece is a real challenge for them. Anxiety can be a challenge. Um, but they're all, um, uh, most are college bound actually. Okay. Anything further? Well, thank you, Ronnie. Again, this has been great. And, uh, uh, we appreciate your willingness to do outreach to the families to see if, uh, we, uh, can benefit from their experience as well. I certainly will. I'll be in touch. Terrific. Thanks very much. Thank you. Have a good day. Thanks. Okay. Uh, Tom indicated that, uh, we really have nothing new on, uh, the agenda, uh, with risk or with agenda item number six, uh, agenda item number seven is topics not recently anticipated 48 hours in advance. I'm unaware of those. Tom left off adjournment on the agenda. So I guess we have to keep talking unless someone wants to make a motion. We, uh, amend the, uh, uh, agenda to adjourn. Is there a second? Second. Those in favor of adjourning bill. Yes. Uh, Jean. Yes. John. Yes. Brian. Brian. Are you a yes. Raise your hand, Brian. Yes. Okay. And Stephanie. Yes. All right. Thank you all. It's.
I see nobody – I see nobody raising their hand, so I do welcome John Thomas to the meeting. So, at this point, I would welcome Patty Sullivan to the meeting. Patty, thanks for joining us today. I'd ask that you introduce yourself, tell us who you're associated with, and feel free to talk about the work that you do. And at this point, I'll turn the meeting over to Member Whitney, and he can take it from here. But I will stay on the meeting until 9.30 – I'm sorry, until 11.30, 9.30 my time. 11.30 your time, and I'll sign off at that – quietly sign off at that point. So, welcome, Patty Sullivan. Thank you. Hi. Good morning, everybody. So, I just – I work for Wayside Youth and Family Support. I'm sorry, Patty. I'm just going to interrupt briefly. I'm sorry. Sure. I wasn't able to chat this in, because I don't think there is chat on this, but I may have to step out. So, if I disappear for 15 or 20 minutes, it will be briefly, because there's some stuff going on at my house, but then I'll be back. So, just wanted to tell people that, and thank you for being here. All right. Let me make this one comment. If you step out, Bill, and I'm gone, that reduces our quorum. We're now a seven-member committee. Since Ms. Provost left the committee, she moved out of town. She resigned from the committee, and it appears that her spot won't be filled. So, we do need four to keep a quorum. So, maybe we'll – I leave it up to member Whitney to maybe stop the meeting until you're able to come back, unless you don't want to leave now and come back by 1130, but I don't want to tell you what to do. No, it's a thing in my house, so when the person arrives, I have to spend 15 minutes with them. But I don't know when they're coming. Okay. Well, maybe have a quick lunch break or something. No, actually, I apologize. With John here, we'll maintain the quorum. So, you're all set, Bill. Great. All right. Patty, the floor is yours. Good morning, everybody. So, I am the Senior Director of Young Adult Residential Services at Wayside. So, Wayside Youth and Family Support Network is a mental health-focused agency. We work with youth and young adults anywhere between the ages of six, seven years old, all the way up to 26 years old. We do do some work with adults through the Department of Children and Families as well, but we're mostly focused as that 26 and under age group. We have services all over the state of Massachusetts. We're the lead agency to DCF in several communities. We're funded through DCF, DMH, HUD. We have various grants in several of our programs as well across the state. My job solely is I oversee all of our young adult residential facilities. So, we have facilities in Methuen. We have two in Somerville, one in Waltham, one in Framingham, and one in Arlington. So, those are, some of them are funded through DMH and some of them are funded through DCF. They all work with youth and young adults that are between the ages of 17 to 24, 25. We have contracts, like I said, through DMH as well as DCF, and we also work with the HUD program with the government grants, which we provide assistance and housing assistance and shelter to young adults who are experiencing chronic homelessness. We work mostly with young adults who have mental health needs. We also do have a large population in our DCF programs of unaccompanied refugee minors. who have come into the country before their 18th birthday, seeking asylum in the United States. So, those programs are very unique. Clearly, you know, we have kids who come from all over the country and we actually, I mean, all over the world. We actually don't even get to meet them until we pick them up at Logan Airport. So, it's a pretty unique and dynamic experience, for sure. And these kids are some of the most unbelievable people coming into this country with no family, nothing. Half of them, you know, don't speak English at all or just a little. And so, seeing them, you know, grow and change is certainly inspiring. So, that's, you know, kind of like the quick synopsis of what my role is at the programs. I oversee five directors and six clinical directors. So, I oversee and supervise them weekly. And we have about 120 young adult beds. And that's just in the young adult residential portion. We also have, you know, we have a campus in Framingham, which houses over 100 adolescents. And we also do a lot of community services. We have the Family Resource Center, which is in Framingham. We also have several outpatient services and in-home services that provide services to families and to children in the home. So, I guess that's kind of, we don't do a lot of work with the DDS, with the Department of Developmental Services. Most of our services are focused on mental health needs.
Anybody have any questions? Do members of the committee have questions of Ms. Sullivan? Well, certainly, this is Jean Melbourne. What are your incremental needs for housing? What's the profile of the people who need housing? You know? Yeah, yeah. So, I would say, you know, this is, of course, my niche is young adults. But I would say that that is probably that 18 to 24-year-old range is definitely a place that we definitely need support in housing. There are, I'm part of a committee through HUD that it, you know, with the new administration, there's going to be a lot of cutbacks on in that. And so, we're not really sure what next year's programming is going to look like, but they're looking at a 30% cap of what we've originally had for funding in what is called permanent supported housing. And this is a housing program that we, you know, we meet a young adult that's homeless, we work with them to find them a job, we provide case management. If they need mental health services, we can connect them to community services. And then we find them an apartment, and they are the leaseholder, and we figure out through their, you know, their work how much they can pay in rent, and then we supplement their rent. They can stay in that program from up to two years, and the idea is that we slowly pull away, and we slowly pay less and less and less and less and less. That has been historically the most successful way to house young adults and keep them house and because there's a lot of responsibility on them. We do have supported apartments where we hold the lease, but we find that that is not as successful. That's through a contract through DMH, so we continue to do it, but it's not as successful given they're not on the lease, you know, there's not much if they don't decide to pay their rent. We still pay their rent, so, you know, the piece through HUD is actually, you know, really gives them a lot of independence and really puts a lot of emphasis on them having to pay the rent. They're on the lease. Nobody wants to be evicted. No one wants to have an eviction on their record. We would not step in and cover their full lease. If they don't cover their portion, then we support them in managing that, but we would not financially step in. With the HUD cuts, which they're proposing this 30% cap on these types of programs, HUD is really looking to cut out a lot of programming. And they're, you know, because their funding is going to be cut by so much, they're looking to house elderly and children and family with children. You know, obviously that, obviously that's a really big need. With this 30% cap, if that does go through, it could leave up to 758 families unhoused. In addition to what we already are seeing, which I know you all know is, you know, a pretty chronic problem across the state. So their focus is going to be on those higher need families. And unfortunately, young adults don't fit into that bracket. They're going to be looking at more transitional services for them. And we do have a transitional program, which is basically like a shelter. They just have to prove that they're chronically homeless and then they can stay there for up to two years. But again, we don't find that to be as successful to providing that long-term stability because they're not responsible for the lease. You know, it's a three-decker that we own and, you know, we pay for. And, you know, they're expected to pay rent. But if they don't, there's not a lot of recourse. So I would say that permanent supported housing is really the piece, at least for the young adult population. And I would assume it would transfer over into older adults as well, is the piece that we would really, that is where the housing need is definitely. Because it's a short-term service. It's a robust service. They'll provide the case management piece, which, you know, provides support and clinical counseling if they need it. And then there's also the responsibility piece where they are the leaseholder. So there's a lot riding on whether or not they can keep their job and pay their rent and focus on making themselves more successful for the future.
What percentage of this population is coming out of the foster care system? I don't know the exact number, but I can tell you, I would say, so we have our two DCF young adult programs. They're both working with the Accentria population, which is the Unaccompanied Refugee Minor Program that I told you about. And they are part of that as a subset of DCF. But we also have kids who have signed themselves back into the DCF services. So I would say, you know, probably about 30%, 25% to 30% of these young adults are coming out of the system. And that's hard to, I don't know, like the kids that are homeless don't really have a lot of information on where they were. And so I'm just thinking of the young adults that we definitely know that have definitely come from DCF. And then I would say that the other two thirds or the other probably 50%, 60% is coming out of DMH funded programs. So they've had, you know, DMH, Department of Mental Health Services throughout most of their life and now meet adult eligibility. And they are, they probably are about 60, 65%. And then that last percent is those HUD kids that we see because those are our smallest contracts and grants. Thank you. Sure. I'm curious, do these individuals live independently or do they have staff, caregivers, full or part-time? Yeah, so actually all. So we, you know, we have group homes. So there are five group homes where it is staffed 24 hours a day. Young adults live there. You know, they provide, they get mental health services. They get case management services. They're expected to, you know, have jobs, day structure. A lot of the kids that are at that level are usually still in high school trying to finish up their high school degree, especially in those DCF programs. The kids that come in as unaccompanied minors, typically, you know, they're 18, 19 years old and they're at like a sophomore level in high school because the educational systems are just not the same outside the United States. So a lot of those young adults are still in high school, so there is five of those. And then we also have step-down. So we call that the pre-independent living. And then we have like a step-down, which is called an independent living in five different programs. We have, let's see, we have seven, we have eight apartments, which we hold the lease on. And those are not staffed 24 hours a day. The young adults live there on their own. They're expected to pay their rent, a portion of the rent, which is how we calculate that as 30% of their income, which is typically how Section 8 has calculated rent income. So we would have them pay rent. They're expected to clean, cook, things like that. They have to pay for their own utilities, Wi-Fi, things like that. So it's a step down. We do continue to provide case management. Sometimes in the DMH programs, we provide medication management. We'll pack their medication. So they'll hold like six or seven days worth. And we'll go out and make sure that they're taking them and that they have refills and things like that. And then we also have this last level, which we have outreach. And those kids either move out on their own or they move home with their families or they live in the community. And we see them in a community-based. And then there's the HUD programming, which is we have the transitional program, which is in Somerville. And that's a nine-bed. The easiest way to describe it is it's kind of like a homeless shelter. Kids have to, they present at the Somerville Homeless Coalition. They have to prove that they're not, they have nowhere to stay, which is usually just like a letter from someone. Or if they have like, they've been staying at different shelters, they can prove that that shelter can provide documentation. And then they can stay up to two years. That is not staffed. We are lucky in that we've been able to find a three-decker across the street from one of our group homes. So we do staff it because we find that it turns into, sometimes it can be a bit of a nightmare with nine young adults living under one roof. And so we do staff that, we don't staff it full-time, but we do have an overnight staff that stays awake there on every night. And then during like office hours, our clinical staff is over there from the DCF program. And then, yeah, so, and then the, the last piece is the, the HUD apartments, which is, we have six slots through our, through a program in Methuen, which we house young adults. And that's the, that's the part of the programming that they are on the lease and we supplement the lease for them. And we also provide case management. Another piece of that program is called youth navigation, which we do street, street outreach. So we have a youth navigator and she does street outreach to, outreach to a lot of communities in, you know, the Lowell, Methuen, Haverhill, that area to work with young adults who are on the street and, and how to help them connect them to resources. Quite often that's a feeder program into the, the other, you know, the permanent supported housing program, but not always.
John. John, I think you're muted.
Sorry about that. Um, Bill, I just wanted to mention that, uh, Brian Boja is on this call, um, but he's not visible. Thank you.
So I guess my question would be, um, do you build your own houses? Like, um, and what would be a, if I could ask, if I could ask, if I could ask Jalen maybe to bring Brian over. Thanks.
And if you were to build a place, like how many people would live there? And, and then while I'm at, while I have the floor, like, um, how do you think about public transport or transportation or how people get around? Um, if perhaps they don't have a car. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a huge factor that we factor in. Um, so I would say we, it's a mix. Um, we rent the house in both houses in Somerville. We have two large houses in Somerville. We rent both of those. Um, we have tried several times to find a house that we could buy. It's hard to find close houses. I mean, we're, we're so lucky that we were able to rent these two places across the street from each other so that we're able to provide more support to that HUD housing. Um, so that is always something that we've kind of thought about is, should we buy a three-decker? Um, obviously the Somerville area is, you know, very expensive and it's really hard for a nonprofit to buy a three-family house, um, in there. And also there's not a lot of inventory. So, um, we do own the house where our, our young adult program group home is located in Framingham. We own that house. Um, we also own, um, the Waltham house and we own the house that's in Methuen. Um, I would say, you know, really the, the, we could really use more, um, more housing in the Methuen area. I think that's a really difficult area for kids to go, or even further north, the North Shore. However, the public transportation is like not that great up there. So it's like, are we putting these kids in housing that then they can't go anywhere? How are we creating like this, this cycle of dependence on us, you know? So, I mean, the Arlington program and the, and the Somerville program, those kids are out and about all the time. They're, you know, walking to Davis square and they're out on the T and so, um, and the bus system is so robust. So that is definitely, um, like we, I would love in a perfect world, I would love to own a place in Somerville. Other questions of Patty?
Tom. Thank you, Bill. Um, Roach Family Foundation is a for-profit organization. They have homes, I believe, in Noah and Walpole, and then the Charles River group has a home in Wayland. Do, um, residents of any of those homes go to your day programs at all? Do you know, Patty? I don't know off the top of my head. Um, I don't oversee, there is a young adult group home, I mean, um, day center, and then there's also the family resource center. So I'm not really sure. Um, I do know that we do some work with employment options, which is like a clubhouse, and I think it's in Marlboro, and I would assume maybe some of, some of the, um, the people that you're talking about might attend to that daily. All right. Thank you. John, Brian, questions?
I'm good. Thank you. Patty, um, given particularly, uh, the, uh, anticipated cutbacks of the HUD funding, do you, uh, foresee the need or the ability to develop additional housing, uh, under that program? So that is what we're kind of trying to explore with HUD right now. I'm, I'm part of a small focus group trying to figure out, like, how can we get the most bang for our buck, you know, through this funding? Um, what we were looking at some of the agencies that do particularly well, you know, is it a way to, to pool our resources into these programs that seem to have a niche for this? Um, you know, because obviously agencies do better than other agencies. So trying to figure that out and trying to figure out, um, how we could DTI up in the, up near Methuen, and if the, if they can work together to work to, you know, and to pool their resources so that they can try to facilitate the most amount of work. Um, so that is something that we're, we're looking into. I mean, this, we're okay for money for the next, um, up until next, like, August, um, because that has already been, like, has been, like, um, put out there. This is, we're, we're looking for the, the following grant year. Um, and so I think that would be, um, you know, those would be the people that we would want to focus on, on trying to create, if there's a way for us to continue the work that we're doing with the permanent supported housing, that is what, what our focus would be. And that's kind of what we're focused on right now in this group that I attend. Um, because like I said, the transitional housing, well, it's, it's a bandaid, right? I mean, I heard somebody say the other day, it's a bandaid for a bullet hole. And it is like, that is what like, you know, these are, um, it, it does give you a warm place to stay, but it, it doesn't, it's not, that responsibility isn't there. And I, you know, we all know as, you know, youth and young adults, they need to feel that responsibility to build that autonomy, that then they can build off of that, to be more successful and, um, you know, there, that just isn't built into those programs. So I'm sad to see the fact that that's where the money is going to start going, um, because I think it's just a quick bandaid. And I don't think long-term it's, it's, it's, it's, I know long-term it's not nearly as successful as the other programs.
Well, um, you're, you've been very generous with your time. Uh, this has been very helpful information, uh, for our committee. And I'm sure I speak, uh, for everyone in, uh, expressing our appreciation to you and your colleagues for the important work that you do, uh, with, uh, a challenging population, I'm sure. Uh, so, uh, we, uh, again, thank you for, for, for, uh, your participation and, uh, best of luck to you and your colleagues as you go forward with this important work. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much. Thank you. The next, uh, item on the agenda, uh, a conversation with Vic, uh, Di Gravino, uh, president and CEO of Riverside Community Care. Uh, uh, good morning, Mr. Good morning. Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, I, I'm sure you've been in touch with Tom Fay, who, uh, unfortunately has just left us. Um, this is, uh, the committee that is, uh, uh, advisory to the Wayland Select board, uh, and we are exploring various, uh, models for providing, uh, housing for people with, uh, disabilities. And so we're very interested in the work that, uh, Riverside Community Care does. And so I wondered if you could give us just an overview of, uh, uh, of your programs and, uh, the services you provide. Well, we're happy to, um, thank you for inviting me. Um, so Riverside Community Care is a, um, non-profit provider of behavioral health care and human services. Uh, we're based in Denham. We provide services throughout much of Eastern Massachusetts, um, going up to the North Shore, Andover, North Redding, um, coming down through Cambridge Somerville, and then, uh, um, Needham, Dedham, kind of Metro West area. Uh, not, I guess, not technically Metro West, if you consider Metro West Framingham, um, New Orwood, then going through South Eastern Massachusetts to Milford and, um, all the way to Southern Worcester County. Um, we provide a range of services, all community-based, uh, so we have four outpatient behavioral health centers. Uh, we have two community behavioral health centers, which are, um, the state's version of enhanced outpatient mental health centers. We provide services, um, to children and families, to adults. We provide services to individuals with developmental disabilities, acquired brain injury, um, mental health disorders, substance use disorders. Uh, we provide early intervention services to children under the age of three who are experiencing developmental delays. We have two small private, uh, special education schools. So we, we provide a, a broad array of services to a broad population. We have 1,700 employees, um, the geography that I mentioned earlier, we, it's important to note, we don't provide every service in every geography, uh, depending on the geography, we may have a different array of services. In terms of residential services, which I know this group is most interested in, uh, we have two primary funders for, in, in populations we serve through residential program, uh, programming. One is the developmental disability, acquired brain injury population, uh, those, uh, residential homes are funded, uh, almost exclusively by the department of developmental services, the Massachusetts department of developmental services. We have 33, um, we have 33, um, um, I think two or three of them are funded by the old mass rehab commission, which is now called mass ability. And then through contracts with the department of mental health, we have, I believe we have eight. I don't know how folks experiences working with state government, but, um, state likes to make things as challenging as possible. So what DDS calls group homes, the department of mental health calls group living environments, GLEs. So we have eight, uh, group living environments, um, that serve clients of the department of mental health. And, um, we have two or three residential, um, I'm sorry, respite programs, which are also residential programs, but there it's a shorter length of stay. For clients of the department of mental health who need a more intensive supports, um, for a short period of time before they go back to maybe their own apartment or another group living environment. Some of them may live with family members. Uh, so that's, um, that's an overview of Riverside and the, the type of residential programming we offer. So I'm happy to, um, uh, Tom said he was looking for more of a, a, a dialogue and a Q and a type session. So I'm happy to answer questions on the service we, we provide, how they're funded, how they're staffed, um, whatever, whatever direction is most helpful to the group. Great. Thank you. Questions of, uh, Mr. DeGravion. I was interested in how they're staffed, especially the homes that are funded by DDS. Do they have, um, do the individuals get part or time or full-time staff and how's that, you know, are they on site? Good, good, good question, Stephanie. So yes, all the, all the, um, the group homes, both for the DDS group homes and the DMH group homes, they are by definition staffed 24-7, uh, depending on the state agency and the population, the staffing levels will vary. But typically we have staffing ratios we need to meet, um, in staffing, minimum staffing requirements. We need to abide by under the terms of our contract with the state agency and in our licensing requirements. And I've, also, I'm interested, since that varies, um, would you have any advice in terms of if, if we're designing, um, a group living situation and there could be a different number of staff needed depending on the population at the time? Any suggestions about, uh, how that, how that could be built? Um, so it depends, and I'm not sure I may answer that question. Um, with a question back to you, Stephanie, and, and this is one of my, uh, this group, are you thinking of trying to develop your own residential programs or make properties? Right, we, we have a chance to start from the ground and put, build it in, uh, like, for instance, um, there might be a time when you have several people who need one-to-one. There might be a time when, you know, when that space could be used for another residence and they'd have less staff needed. Um, and, um, we have the chance to actually design the building. Um, it would be, you know, rather than having to work with what's there. Stephanie, can I just, can I just interject and, and Vic, um, John Thomas, it's, it's been a while since I've, I've worked with you, um, when I was at the ARC, uh, Vic. That's right. Hey, John. Hey, I'm okay. How are you? Great. Uh, Vic used to be the Chief of Staff to, uh, State Senator Fred Berry, who was a big disability advocate in the State House. So, uh, just wanted to throw that out. But, uh, Vic, we're, we're, and, and Stephanie, just to clarify, I don't think we, we are interested in designing. We, I mean, I think this committee is sort of tasked with putting together a wishlist of, of, and please, anybody, correct me if my impression is incorrect. But I think it's our task to put together eventually, um, uh, perhaps an RFP, uh, for somebody to come in and do the design work. But it's us, it's up to us to actually put together the criteria for what that would look like, Vic. So, is that here? Okay. Everybody, Stephanie. Right. It's more like. Step on your toes. What goes on, what things would go on our wishlist. Right. Yeah. That's right. So that's helpful. Thank you both. And John, great to see you again. It's been great to see you. In many years.
The town may actually administer the, the, the group home program that you build, or you're just trying to make sites available that an organization like Riverside or VINFEN or, um, Edinburgh center might be able to either rent or acquire to provide under contract to a state agency. The latter. The latter. Okay. So getting, Stephanie, getting back to your question. Um, a big issue, both in the IDD world, the, uh, intellectual and developmental disability world, and in the, the mental health world is that the population that we're serving is growing older. Um, and that's a relatively new phenomenon in part because of advances. We've just become better at serving and meeting the needs of folks with severe mental illnesses or significant developmental disabilities. Um, so we're seeing older folks that require more supports, um, and more, um, accessibility requirements. So if the town was looking to develop property, I would certainly encourage you to look at developing properties that are fully accessible because that will make them more appealing to organizations like Riverside, VINFEN, the Edinburgh center, um, advocates, um, and it will make more appealing to the state agencies that are looking to fund programs. Uh, because that, that absolutely is a, is a, um, uh, a growing need. And a lot of us have old housing stock that is either really, um, it prohibitively expensive to upgrade and to make accessible, um, or maybe just, and not, there's just not the space on the, the lots that we, um, especially in older communities where the lots are smaller in size. So I, I would absolutely encourage you to, to think in those terms. Thanks. It's very helpful. Other questions. This is, uh, unusually, uh, reticent group this morning. I was going to say, I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit surprised. I was, I was all geared up. Yeah. Okay. Jean, go ahead. Okay. Uh, a little bit of an idealized planning exercise here. If, if you could plan a residential building for your population right now and just get what you wanted, what would that residence look like? So it, it probably depends a bit on the population, Jean, but absolutely fully accessible. Um, so that we could accommodate as many individuals as possible, um, who either have accessibility issues, um, from the beginning or may develop accessibility issues, um, moving forward. Um, and, and also the location may matter because depending on how independent the individuals are living there, the idea that folks have a place that they, um, if they don't drive or they don't have a car, they could walk to either public transportation or, um, a local market or a library. Um, so they're not entirely dependent on transportation from the organization. Um, because what we try to avoid at all possible is, and John will certainly understand this, that the reason why we have so many group homes is that was part of the state's intentional shift away from state institutions, um, and to allow people to live as independently in the community, um, and as freely in the community as possible to have a group home. That's very isolated and is not easily accessible by public transportation, or you can't get to a library or store, a store so that the, the residents are entirely dependent on transportation provided by the, the organization that's running the home can in some ways be another form of institutionalization. So, um, that's an important piece, but then there are differences. The state has a great need for residential programs for what they call the turning 22 population. Those are, um, young people who under state law are served through the education system until they turn 22. And once they turn 22, they age out of the education, special education system, and then become, um, the, they become clients of the department of developmental services. Um, there's a huge spike in that population because of the, um, the growth in autism, um, the incidence of autism. So a home that's going to serve a turning 22 population may have, you may want different, you may want a basketball court in the backyard or in the driveway. Um, you may want some recreational space. Um, so it, it can really different, different depending on the population. Thank you. I'll, I'll throw one in since we got Vic all excited here. Um, so Vic, um, this is Wayland. It's an expensive community to, to develop a program and obviously, uh, and I, I, I personally think that it would be an, a great opportunity for DDS or DMH, uh, to, to have the opportunity to develop, um, a program at this location. It, it probably by, by most, uh, standards would be considered, uh, pretty not non accessible. I mean, it, it is, it's in a neighborhood. Uh, Wayland is largely, uh, you know, a car driven community. Um, there is a sidewalk, uh, out front of the house, but it, you know, it, the location is pretty far away from the, the library, the downtown area, et cetera. So, um, that being said, I mean, what, how would you go about crafting a program to sort of fit into this particular location? And again, we're talking about a four acre, uh, lot. I know that's kind of a blank slate to throw out. Yeah. But so it's, it's absolutely, we, we could do it in any of our peer organizations could do it and would again, depending on for, for us, the biggest challenge is the reimbursement, essentially what the state pays us to provide the services. Right. Um, so depending on what the occupancy costs are, um, that, that would be a big factor, but we absolutely have, we opened a new group living environment for DMH clients in Walpole, uh, which kind of fell into our lap. It's a nine bedroom house, beautiful house, not really accessible to anything by foot, but at the same time, it was too good of an opportunity for us and for the department of mental health to pass up. So I don't, if you moved forward with this type of plan, you're going to have it. I think the key thing is making sure that the state agencies are aware of what you're doing so that, um, you have somebody that will pay for the program and that's going to be provided in the home. Because if you don't have that, unless you find some private organization with deep pockets, the, and they, they are out there, as you know, John, um, but there's not a lot of them. You're going to have problems actually having a program in that, that, on that property. Right. And concerns about long-term operating expenses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I'm interested to hear you say that, uh, you, uh, recently worked on a nine bedroom house. Uh, we understood that, uh, the state has a cap of, uh, really five residents per group home. Uh, yes, I think it depends on the, the agency in the program. So this was a department of mental health group living environment. Um, and they were very comfortable, um, with the size of the program. And then the staffing scales up depending on the, the number of staff you have. Um, the biggest requirement for these programs is that everybody has their own bedroom. Uh, so that, that's key. Um, but yeah, we, we, it was, and that, that's a larger house for us and it did present some staffing challenges for us, but it was something the, um, the DMH, the department really wanted to do and, um, we, we always try to be good partners with the state agencies, but, um, I know DDS may have a cap on how many residents. As I think about our group homes on the DDS side, I think you're right. We probably don't have any group homes, certainly with more than five residents. And we may, most of them may be three or four residents. And as, uh, with respect to your, um, suggestion that, uh, you know, uh, well, your observation, I guess that the biggest challenge is reimbursement from the state and your advice that we, uh, go to the state and see if we can secure some type of commitment or expression of interest. Um, uh, many of the people we've talked to have, uh, worked with existing structures rather than new construction. And, and this would be new construction. It's a vacant site, uh, as John points out, four acres. Um, uh, so, uh, uh, would the state, do you think, uh, acknowledge the fact that there will be higher construction costs and, uh, though, obviously it will be fully accessible. Um, it's a good question. Um, especially given that we're looking at potential budget cuts. So at the state level, I, I think that's a conversation and you, you all would want to have with the state agencies and maybe through your legislative delegation. Um, because that's, that it's a really good question. I mean, it does have to from, I mean, we're a nonprofit organization. So we, we understand that when we go into a contract with the state, we're not, we don't make a profit. We, whatever surplus we have from operations goes back into our, um, our organization and our services. But we have to be really careful about taking on contracts where we lose money because, um, if we have too many of those, then we jeopardize the, the financial health of the overall organization. Um, so that it's a really important question that would need to be answered for by whether it's Riverside again, or any of our peer organizations, like what are the operating costs going to be? Right. Has Riverside done ground up construction of, uh, a group home or a community residence, uh, or any alternative? Have you worked with developers, uh, and then turned around and done a master lease? We have not. Um, so I've been with Riverside just over four years now. And in our recent history, I don't believe we have, we've done a couple, just in the past 12 months, we've done, um, basically gutted existing structures and did total renovations, but they were, they were existing structures. Um, we have not done any ground up projects in recent history, but I know there are organizations that do, um, and part of it's our geography, right? There's just not a lot of new, new land to develop, but I know some of our colleagues out probably more in the central part of the state have probably done, um, deals like that. Other questions of Vic? It's a quiet group today. Maybe, uh, That last question was my question, so you said it for me. So I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, um, it sounds like you have a terrific program and, uh, gosh, 1700 employees. That's, uh, that's a substantial organization. Um, Um, it, it is what started 40 years ago is a small nonprofit in the basement of a church in Newton is, um, is, it's become quite a large, complicated business at this point. Really need a large church basement to get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, if there are no further questions, uh, we'd like very much to thank you, uh, for, uh, your, uh, your time. Uh, you clearly, uh, know your business really well, and this is, uh, very, uh, valuable information and good advice. Uh, so we're appreciative of that. Uh, and, uh, we wish you, uh, continued success. Thank you. Good luck. This sounds like a fantastic project. So thank you for thinking of this type of project and good luck with everything. Thanks very much. Thanks, Rick. Good seeing you. Good seeing you too, John. Okay. Um, I don't believe, uh, our next panelist or our next, uh, resource person is gonna be, uh, joining us, uh, imminently, uh, that being Steve Merritt, uh, former interim director of the Wellesley Housing Authority. Um, it, what we might consider doing is, uh, jumping to, uh, agenda item number four for the moment, uh, consideration of the minutes of the October 8th and October 22nd meetings. If there's no objection. I move to approve. I'll second. Okay. Uh, those, uh, both sets of minutes. All right. I move November 6th. Okay. I'll second. Okay. Uh, any comments on, on the minutes? It was my first use of AI. It was exciting. It's cool. Really cool. Question. What tool did you use just out of curiosity? It was tricky because you can't just drop a video into, um, into a chat bot. So I actually used my zoom from work. And then I played the video on my computer while, while I was sharing my zoom screen with myself. And I only took out the part where the neighbor session, the 40 minutes where the neighbors were talking. And then I asked zoom AI to create a transcript. First a one pager, then a three pager, and then please summarize the concerns of the neighbors. And then I created a two pager from that stuff. And it took, you know, an hour or so, but it wasn't too bad. You didn't have a 14 year old do that for you. If I had a son at home, I would have made him do it, but he's off at college. Okay. The, uh, I guess the only suggestion I would have is, uh, on the vote, uh, that was taken for adjournment. It might be well to indicate that that was on a roll call since, uh, under state law, we need to take roll call votes, uh, when there are, uh, remote or, uh, hybrid meetings. Um, so, uh, Brian, if you will accept that amendment, uh, I accept that. Yep. Okay. Uh, so, uh, uh, on Brian's, if there's no further discussion on Brian's motion to approve the minutes of November, the, uh, 6th as amended, um, those in favor, Jean. Yes. Yes. Stephanie. Yes. Brian. Yes. John. Yes. Bill. Yes. I vote yes as well. Okay. Thank you. Uh, we have one other set of minutes, I believe. October 22nd. You, is that a motion, Brian? I move to approve the minutes of October 22nd. Thank you. Uh, is there a second? Second. Any, uh, questions or, uh, comments? Okay. If there's no further discussion, uh, on the motion, Brian? Aye. Uh, John? Aye. Bill? Aye. Jean? Aye. Stephanie? Aye. I vote aye as well. Okay. Great. Thank you. Uh, both sets of minutes are approved. Um, okay. Um, I do not see that, um, Steve Merritt has joined us as yet. Is Ronnie Kessler still planning to join us? Do you know? I believe so. Uh, though, uh, not right away, I think at, uh, uh, 1 PM. So, um, I guess Vic had, uh, uh, according to Tom, uh, Tom had allowed for an hour for the conversation with Vic. So, um, I think we have some time on our hands cause, uh, I guess Steve Merritt is not expected until 1230. Um, should, can we begin discussion? Sure. Uh, if you'd like, we can, uh, move to, uh, agenda item number five, discussion regarding most effective process and synthesizing and organizing the extensive information received by the committee to date in order to develop recommendations of the Whale and Select Board pursuant to the committee's charge. So, um, any, uh. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I've been wondering if we don't need a little guidance from the Select Board at this point, um, you know, it's going to be impossible to pick a project based on merit as in who do we help? Because there are so many disabled populations with different characteristics. Um, from listening to these vendors, uh, you know, they sort of group them as according to how, how you take care of the people. Um, if the Select Board had any preferences that we should be considering at this point, it'd be nice to know. But if they want us to just do an idealized planning exercise, we can do that. But we might be more efficient with a little more guidance. Yeah. I, I think frankly, Gene, uh, the Select Board is looking to this committee, uh, for its recommendation and its guidance. Um, it, it may be possible, uh, to frame some choices for the Select Board if you'd rather, uh, if you'd feel more comfortable with that. Uh, uh, I think people generally respond or can react better to, uh, a draft or a finite set of choices than going back and then saying, Hey, you know, what do you think? Um, Bill, I, I think also, um, if I could, uh, Gene, I think, you know, we, we've, we've heard from a lot of, um, vendor agencies that do business with the state to actually, uh, build, build and staff the programs. I think one of the things that maybe is missing in, uh, the folks that we've heard from so far is, uh, the voice of the, the actual constituents of, of the folks that are going to be served, um, in a potential program. Um, that's why I was actually looking forward to hearing from Ronnie because she can speak directly to the future needs of the kids that are currently in the public school system that are going to be in need of housing. Um, she, she has the data at her fingertips that can sort of tell the story as to, um, what the need is going to be for kids that are turning 22 this year, next year, 10 years down the road. Uh, so I'm kind of anxious to hear from her. Um, I'd also really be interested to hear from any other constituent groups in town that might have, uh, some information that they could share with this group that would help us answer your question. I guess one impression I'm forming. Is that any building that we, you know, contract to have built, um, should be fully accessible. Um, because it, it gives you a lot of freedom in over time as these populations change and age. And, you know, that you can accommodate people with lots of different, um, physical challenges. So, you know, the wide halls with the handrails and the roll in showers and plus, you know, maybe even more technology, but make a building that will, uh, change with the population served. Maybe we contract with one vendor at the beginning. And then for some reason that vendor, let's just say simply goes out of business or something. So we're looking for a new management company, you know, it, I just think having a ADA compliant building from the beginning will make us, um, much able to, more able to help a diverse population that's changing on us over time. Yeah. I agree so much with that. Um, it, it widens the, the range of population to people with more physical and developmental, et cetera, disabilities, and, and the population are going to age. The other group would might be nice to hear from as if is the, the, uh, maybe some of the constituents that people who grew up in Whalen, who have to live far away in group homes. I think there are a bunch of people in Hopkinton that have down syndrome that, uh, some of them are from Whalen or adults and, um, that are living at a distance from their families. Um, see what that, their needs might, but the, you know, the adult population and that, that are getting older that are from Whalen, what they might need. Yeah. I think, I think you're right. Um, I think when we started out, we had a general idea of, you know, helping disabled young people and, uh, you know, it's getting more and more and more complexes. We've learned more and more about this. And I have a narrow definition and it, it keeps expanding. And I feel like I'm not in a position to recommend exactly what population we should be serving. And, you know, I think, I think John's right. Ronnie would be very helpful in helping us come to some kind of conclusion. But, um, and I think it also depends on who, who would, if we put out an RFP, who would, who would build up, who would build this and staff it and, uh, supply the services. So, um, it's sort of like rolling the dice, but, um, uh, you know, I think we have to be realistic about, uh, who's gonna, who can actually build this and make this development a success. It might be helpful to start with some key things that we've learned. I mean, I was impressed by there weren't that many questions, but I wasn't actually that surprised because we've actually heard and learned a lot over the last four, you know, meetings. And so I think that sort of represented actually what we had learned, not so much that we didn't have questions. Um, but I, I think we've, um, we've learned that there's tremendous amount of need, right? So there's, um, in multiple categories and we could, we could describe like those different categories that we've identified sort of, um, in, in groups, not in super granular detail, but in groups. Um, and then I think we could maybe summarize what we've learned about fit, right? Like, so people who don't have a car and need to walk, you know, but are quite functional might not be a great fit for this location because it's kind of far away, but people who are well-supported and have transportation could actually use a lot of the Wayland resources and a pretty low barrier way. Like they wouldn't have to drive a long way. So like that might be a type of group that would fit really well. Um, and then we've learned, you know, that it's gonna be essential that there be a preexisting relationship with the funding agency for this to fly. Like, um, DDS or DMH is gonna have to be on board in some long-term commitment way for anyone to agree to build something like this or, or do it. Um, and I think we've also learned though, that there's lots of great examples of buildings that people have built that are in the way that we've been thinking. Right. Of the six to nine people well-supported ideally two in the same space. Um, although that we don't think we think that might be a problem, but we might also be able to get a special case. You never know. Um, and probably if we talk through it, we'd think of other things that we had learned. And then, um, we could begin to formulate a couple scenarios that might work and some pros and cons for each of those scenarios, and then get closer to saying something to the select board. Um, so I, um, have been looking at an apartment building that was, uh, built by Boston home, which is a organization that works with people with neurological, um, issues. And that their model seems to be completely different than most of what we've been looking at. So I'm gonna try to get them here soon to talk to us. Um, they've built next to their major facility. They've built a 32 unit, um, completely ADA compliant apartment building. And their population is people in wheelchairs. And, um, so it's basically, if you wanna live there, you have to be an adult non-smoker and you use a wheelchair. And so they've got this population that is, um, they're fairly high functioning. It, it, what I can tell so far, most of them have jobs. Um, they just, and can drive cars that are manual, manual control cars. Um, but they have a heck of a time finding someplace to live, uh, because the stairs are a barrier. Lack of an elevator is a barrier. Not being able to turn your wheelchair around in the kitchen is a barrier. Not being able to get your wheelchair into the shower is barrier. Um, and this building they've built, uh, you know, it has, uh, subsidized housing in it. Uh, anyway, I'm gonna try to get these people here soon. Um, it's just such an interesting model that I think the fact that these people, uh, could be integrated into the community and they can drive themselves around because we've got this problem with this site. Um, not being a convenient walking distance to services and we've heard this over and over again from the management companies that our site really doesn't fit their ideal model for the well-being of the people who live there. Anyway, it was just interesting to me that a model like this hadn't come up in our discussions previously. John, do you have any thoughts about that? Well, I think it might be helpful for this committee when it is putting together recommendations to inform the select board what the different types of populations. Um, and by extension, the different types of models, what that would actually, uh, translate to in terms of what's it, what, what's this, what's this eventual building going to look like? What, where are the brick and mortar, uh, what structure or structures, what are they going to look like? What's, what's the footprint going to be? Um, I would imagine Bill, Bill had to run off for a sec, but I would imagine that would be something that, that the neighbors would really be interested to, to know about. Um, and so I, I would assume that would be something also that the select board wanting to be sensitive to the neighbors would, would want to know. Um, so along similar lines, you know, depending on the population that's being served, as we've heard from all of the folks that have come through here, that's going to dictate some of those design considerations. It's going to dictate the type of traffic that is going to impact the site. You know, is it going to be half, uh, half the vehicles are staff vehicles and, um, maybe half the vehicles are resident vehicles. If they're high functioning folks that actually have a license and can drive. If we're talking about a group home, it's going to be all staff, um, along with some bands that are taking people to day programs in the morning and in the, in the afternoon. What is that going to look like in terms of, uh, the traffic flow? Um, so I think to the extent that we can help translate what the different programs, what the different populations, how that's going to equate to the bricks and mortar and the activity on, uh, on the parcel. I think those are going to be pieces of information that the select board would find helpful. I mean, if I were in their shoes and I knew nothing about the human service world or the housing needs of people with disabilities. I think that would be information that I would find helpful. So it's like a cluster analysis. Well, I would almost, I would almost, uh, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm trying to sort of envision how, how to translate this into, uh, you know, user-friendly data. I would almost, you know, have, have a sheet of, uh, that would be devoted to, okay, what, what would a group home look like? What would a group home serving, uh, adult individuals with developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, probably funded, um, and this would be part of the information that would be on the, on the sheet. That would be a model that would be funded by DDS. Um, you know, it would have, uh, for, you know, upwards of four, four, uh, full-time residents, um, could have six to seven, uh, staff, uh, that would be rotating in and out on a daily basis. Um, you know, it just, just listing all of the characteristics for that particular model and then do the same thing for say a similar, uh, program that would be serving not DDS clients, but DMH clients. What would that model look like? What would that model look like? How would the architectural needs of the one population differ, uh, for the design and architectural, uh, features that you would want to, you know, ensure went into, uh, creating a program that would serve, be serving clients served by DMH. Same thing with, um, adults with, um, on the spectrum. You know, you're talking about, for example, probably in most cases, uh, a smaller population being served because of the particular needs of that group. And again, um, I'm, I'm just sort of spitballing here, but that would be the way I would sort of, uh, go, go about, um, putting together information in a, in a user-friendly format. Um, Brian, can you say anything to us about the profile of this young adult group that's aging out of the schools, um, at 22? Like any kind of distribution of some nature in the challenges faced by these folks? Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of young people come into our senior disabled housing. I think Titua Village and Bent Park. Um, and most, a lot of times it's their first rental experience. Uh, they're leaving the home for the first time. And the, you know, the parents are done basically. Um, and so they, they, at first they seem to, you know, they seem to have, uh, they seem to function well, but as time goes on, um, they seem to lose their friends and support systems. And if there are people who are providing services to them, they can, the services are voluntary, they can, uh, refuse services. And as time goes on, they become more and more isolated. So, uh, and it's an unhappy situation. Right. And it leads to bad behaviors that really could have been prevented with a little, little intervention, very little intervention. Uh, so, I'm not sure, we're not privy to what diagnoses are out there, but, uh, we see the behaviors. And, uh, that is totally acceptable now. Gene, I'd like to, um, respond to a couple of things you said. Uh, you know, with respect, or maybe it was John, uh, with respect to the question of transportation, um, I wonder if it makes sense for us to speak to the Metro West Regional Transit Authority to see, uh, the extent to which they would be able to provide transportation on some kind of scheduled basis to, uh, a development on the site. Um, uh, as John or someone said, you know, uh, depending on the provider, maybe they would have vans, uh, or, uh, ways to, uh, uh, take the residence to, whether it's, uh, a job, a volunteer, uh, opportunity, or, uh, the library, grocery store, whatever, uh, might be well to check in with them. We've had experience with that. And, and the trouble is that they, they have a window of an hour, at least either way, you know, when they pick up and drop off people. So it's extremely difficult to use them. There was a while I had to use them to try and get JJ to and from his program in Natick. And sometimes the program would need to close and the bus wouldn't have shown up yet. Yeah. Or I'm sitting out in the dark waiting and trying to find out where that bus is. So it's, it's, it's okay for a shopping trip, but not for appointments so much or. Right. Right. Um, unless they could get on a schedule and, you know, they do have a schedule and go around. They pick people up at. It's a village and Ben park. I don't know if they could extend it out to another facility, even. And I don't know if they could stop the council on aging, the new council on aging. But if you can get on their route schedule, I think that would make a big difference. I think we could have a conversation with Joe Nolan, who's a chair of that board, who's a wayland guy and former select board member and see if we can get some attention. Um, also I had the sense that, um, to, to the point of going to the state and, and getting their take on it. I think that would be, um, helpful. Though I gather also that a number of, uh, these service providers or, uh, developers have existing relationships, uh, with the state agencies. John is, is that your experience? Yeah. I mean, they're, they're not going to proceed unless they've already done their homework and, and, and explore the viability of proceeding with, you know, the kind of investment, I think that would be necessary to, to actually, you know, do the deal. And, uh, and, and begin the, the development for sure. But again, I know it's sort of like, uh, you know, uh, chicken or egg situation where I, I do think it would be helpful for us to have a conversation with, uh, some of the folks at the state. And again, um, I, I mentioned this to, uh, that, that I'd be happy to, uh, to reach out to the DDS area office and, um, invite them to, uh, to participate. Um, but yeah, I mean, you, you, it, it, it, the vendor agencies absolutely would, would want to have some tacit approval from the state before they would proceed. They would want to know that the, the operational dollars, for example, which are sort of the, the most important thing are going to be there to, to fund the clients that are actually going to be living in the home. Right. And to your point bill on transportation, I would just point out that, um, you know, that some of the, the folks that Brian, uh, works with and sees are, are people that are typically going to be higher function individuals. They're not necessarily going to be the folks that are going to be living in a group home type setting. So I, you know, that might be the direction that we're looking to go, uh, with this particular site, but if we are really looking more at a group home, uh, model or, um, a program that's going to support people served by DMH, most of those residential contracts would come with a, uh, transportation, uh, component to it. So the person that's going to be served in a group home would have residential contract dollars. Uh, day program, uh, funded component. And they would have a separate transportation line item attached to their head. And I, I see, you know, Stephanie and Jean, you, you know, the deal, the drill. So, um, that would be a contract with a, with a transportation vendor like Tommy's taxi. Um, and, and they, they, it would be their job to pick those folks up every day and bring them to their day program and back home at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. So we could certainly talk to, um, you know, the regional transportation authority, but, um, that, that would be part of the bargain of, of serving, uh, folks, for example, like said in a group home, uh, model. I, I guess the other, um, sort of category of, uh, people out there are, uh, people who are essentially private pay. Uh, and I believe we did have one group that came in and said that, uh, they would, uh, not necessarily rely on direct state assistance, uh, for, uh, operating support, but rather, uh, there would be rent that is charged and they might seek, uh, a section eight voucher, or, or, and with the family, uh, supplementing that. So that's, that's another model we might consider. Uh, and also it's a four acre site. We, uh, talked about the fact that, uh, the town planners identified that it's possible to create two parcels, uh, of the four acres. So, uh, you know, particularly, uh, if, if we were to go, uh, the DDS route with, uh, you know, a restriction of four or five residents, no more than, um, if, if you, if the site were also occupied by somebody, a private pay kind of approach, then, uh, maybe you don't run afoul of, of that state regulation. We can serve a few more people. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm certainly hoping we can find a way to serve more people. It just seems a four acre site and end up with serving five or 10 people. It seems like a shame. Um, in terms of community acceptance, there's community acceptance issues about how the building looks or buildings look, how big they are, whether they look like a residential home. Um, and then there's community acceptance of the individuals who live in the property. Um, my guess is the toughest sell on the, the human beings is people who, um, have had a history of, uh, mental illness that led to, let's say antisocial behavior or drug use. Um, uh, you know, so when we, some of the vendors we've talked to do work with that kind of population. Uh, so this becomes a question of, you know, which kind of challenges do the selectmen want to wade into, do they want to wade into, you know, problems where there'll be difficulty in community acceptance of the individuals being served? Are they will more or less willing to wade into the challenges of putting perhaps larger buildings than something that looks like a, you know, four bedroom ranch house? Um, I'm not quite sure how to help the selectmen with those issues. And everyone goes quiet. Um, those are definitely tough questions. I mean, ideally we would find some balance, right? Between the neighborhood and, um, what's the right thing to do too. There's more or more accommodations that have been made for adults for disabilities. So, um, if he gets to the top of the section of the list and you guys don't know. Someone's speaking. I've not, you know, a living situation for him or someone else has been living with him. Yeah. I don't know. There might be a background for me. Yep. There you go. That's it. Thanks Brian. So I'll, can I throw one, one other thing out? Please do. So I'm familiar with a, a parent lives in an adjacent town. Uh, she has a 30 something year old, um, adult son living in a fixed site, uh, section eight, uh, affordable apartment. And she's looking to purchase a, uh, a residence to serve her son. So she gets person centered dollars from DDS. Yes. She is funded quite, quite generously by DDS standards to provide for, uh, staffing for her son who does go to a day program, but he's pretty limited. Um, and he is the sort of typical, uh, person on the autism spectrum. He's nonverbal who is not going to thrive in a group environment. He is the type of person that you, you will, you would want to probably serve in a standalone structure. In other words, not in a, uh, a unit, uh, with somebody on the left and somebody on the right, because he's noisy. He's noisy and that he is echolaic, which is re repetitive speech. He sometimes jumps up and down. So if he, if you're living above him or below him, that's not going to work. So she's literally looking for a standalone residence in a community like Wayland, um, to purchase with, with her own, uh, funds out of pocket. And he would be served in that home using DDS dollars moving forward. So would that be an opportunity? Um, would that be an option? John, are you saying that there would be a single unit? Um, it would be, uh, what she would be looking for, what she is currently looking for. She's looking for homes with two or three bedrooms so that there could be, uh, a paid staff that she would, that would be paid out of his person centered funding, uh, which is something that's attached to him wherever he ends up in Massachusetts. Uh, so that person would be, would be probably living there with him and would be supported by part-time staff who would come in, um, when that person wasn't, quote unquote, on the clock. It's, it's, it's a new model that DDS. I, I, I'm not an expert, but, uh, if we had, uh, the DDS area director, she could speak, uh, more about the, the, the type of model that I'm describing here, but it would essentially be, uh, one person served in, in a, in a home, um, supported by staff. And she's willing to, to purchase a home or potentially even build a home from scratch. And she's, she's not alone. I mean, there are other, there are other parents of adult, uh, people that are on the spectrum that sort of fall, fall into this category. There's not a lot of people in the Commonwealth, but there, there are people, uh, similar to her, um, with family members that sort of fit the same description. Yeah. I've, I've sort of wondered about if there is a model and for lack of a better word, I'll call it a condominium complex. Because not, not all of the people who face these challenges, uh, lack financial means, um, but end up with this, a particularly interesting problem where this person will be rejected by others because he's noisy, you know? Um, so with, uh, uh, it's like, um, mini, mini house, tiny house model of a community of tiny houses, where they're organized as condominiums and the families actually purchased them. Um, and maybe there's a management group that provides variety of services to these individuals in their mini houses. I'm just thinking of when I was in, uh, Lahaina, Hawaii a while ago, that, that community burned down. And so they built these tiny house communities for people to live in until the, the town is rebuilt, you know? And it seemed to be working. People did what they needed to do and lived in their tiny house. Um, are there models like that where people buy a condominium unit in a shared care kind of community? I think it's not unusual for, uh, you know, parents or families to, uh, get together and, and create a, uh, a group living situation. Um, this course would be new construction, uh, which might be, uh, a little daunting for, uh, uh, a few families getting together to do. Um, but it's another possibility. I think it still would require a commitment from DDS or someplace like that because the money is, is substantial, right? So, um, they would have to partner and agree to support something for a period of time to make it viable, I would think. But, um, Well, we did have that group, uh, who, uh, are modeling, uh, their, uh, uh, proposal or, or desire on, uh, you know, the outfit in, uh, Western mass, uh, which as far as I know, wasn't relying on, uh, DDS operating subsidies per se. So. I think that's a big thing though. DDS would probably be pretty specific about the kind of living arrangements they'd be willing to be involved with funding. And also the question where there's, you know, if the family might be able to buy something, but what happens 20, 30 years down the road and the family isn't there anymore to continue to support the person. Right. Mm-hmm. No, it would, the person would have to have DDS or some similar kind of funding in perpetuity. Well, a lot of, there, there are people like the, the, um, person that I was just describing who have what, what's called person centered funding. Mm-hmm. And that funding is essentially an effort by the department to provide, uh, more individualized programming for a person that wouldn't fit into a traditional residential model. And that funding would be, like I said, would, would carry through, uh, when mom and dad are no longer around and it would be attached to that person wherever that person, uh, ended up living. And in the case of the, the individual in the family that I was describing, the, the, the mom and dad are very sophisticated. Uh, they have worked this all out with a state planners so that, um, you know, wherever their son ends up living, um, their own personal funds mixed with the funding that will be coming in from the state to provide for the staffing, uh, for example, to support the, uh, the son. Um, that's, that's all been worked out, but from like, like Bill, you were saying, I mean, it's been, or sorry, Bill Adams, you, what you were saying, I mean, it's a daunting thing for, for most families, right? I mean, you guys know, uh, to try to think about, oh my gosh, am I really going to get involved in, uh, HR issues with, with a whole, uh, you know, uh, group of people that I have to hire or fire. Exactly. It's, it's really, I mean, it's a tough thing to suddenly step into that. And that's why so many families, right? I mean, you guys know this, so many families rely on agencies to, to do this because they've got the infrastructure, they, they've got the expertise. They've been doing this for, for decades. So, um, I mean, there, there are pros and cons to that. You give up control, but which is, you know, the downside, but the upside can also be, you give up control because you don't want to have to deal with all the headaches that go along with that. And in talking to these groups, one thing I've taken away is that there is, there's some really good, um, it's important to be big enough to, um, have some flexibility. If you're small and vulnerable, there's just so much uncertainty in this world. That, uh, you're going to be in a much tougher shape than if you're part of a larger group where you, when your nurse can't show up or quits, you know, you can bring in a nurse from somewhere else and you don't have to start from scratch every time. So being a certain size, I think would be a real plus in terms of sustainability and viability. Well, I want to say that this one thing you described isn't possible and it's admirable, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, the, the good thing I've learned is that probably the novice in this group is that there are many great providers in the Commonwealth, experienced well staff tied into the funding streams. So we're not going to struggle to find somebody who could do a great job with deep experience and good resources. Maybe back to John, do you think that, that young adult could only live in a single house? Or could a, a residence be designed that would have enough space that it could support him? But he, um, is, is it possible to have a flexible model where not everyone is packed together, where there's some flexibility there? Maybe not. It's too much to ask. It's too much to ask. I don't think so. I mean, he's, he's very loud, very, very, um, has a lot of verbal outbursts. He's, he's not violent. Uh, he's, he's not somebody that I think, for example, he, you would have to worry about the, the neighbors would be concerned about. But if, if you're living immediately adjacent to him, you're not going to, it's, it's. Yeah. You, you, you're going to hear him. Um, and that's a challenge to serve that population. Does he have a person who lives with him in the home too? So it's him and, and, um, he does. Yeah. But again, he's got the, the, that one person can't be with him to support him all the time. He does go to a day program, but even when it's home, that, um, live in person has support staff also. Yeah. And he's funded, uh, to the point where, uh, DDS pays for all of this. So it's a very robust program, um, that they fund and the, the, the mom and dad basically oversee it. Yeah. I, you know, this is an interesting situation for an accessory dwelling unit, some sort of situation where if the parents can build, building, uh, a house that's maybe used in another way with an accessory dwelling unit that the son lives in. And maybe there's services provided to both housing units. Um, well, the mom and dad, interestingly enough, we're looking at that gene and they're looking at. An accessory accessory dwelling unit that they would live in because the staff needs to be in the home. So the bedrooms, the multi bedroom unit needs to be for the son, not, not the mom and dad, the mom and dad are happy to live in the accessory dwelling unit. Right. And, uh, you know, like we haven't figured out how we're going to do special permits here in Wayland yet for accessory dwelling units, but I think that's going to happen. And I suspect that they'll be allowed up to 50% of the footprint of the major dwelling unit on the property once we get it figured out. So they could, they could live in an accessory dwelling unit. I hope that would not be too restricted inside. Well, um, getting back to the agenda. I hate to do that. Well, it's wonderful to have some time for discussion because we haven't, you know, till now. Well, in fact, we have plenty of time, uh, because, uh, Steve Merritt has not joined us and, uh, Ronnie Kessler is not due until 1 PM. Oh, I am here. Oh, you are there. Great. Well, thank you for joining us. Um, Do you have the voucher? No. Um, I apologize. Uh, Yeah. Your, uh, uh, the named, uh, Tom Fay comes up on, on the zoom. So, uh, uh, for whatever reason, uh, but anyway, um, Mr. Merritt, thank you for joining us. Uh, uh, Mr. Merritt is the former interim, uh, director of the, uh, Wellesley Housing Authority. Uh, as, uh, I'm sure Tom Fay explained to you, we have, uh, a committee here that is, uh, working to develop recommendations for the Weyland Select Board as to the disposition of a four-acre parcel of land, uh, for, that, uh, we hope will be developed for, uh, people, uh, housing for people with disabilities. And, uh, uh, uh, I wonder, Mr. Merritt, if you can tell us about your experience in that area. Well, we, um, well, I was the director of the Norwood Housing Authority for almost 20 years. And, uh, we did develop, uh, with a developer, uh, a house, uh, using Section 8 programming money. Um, the developer developed it. We partnered by placing, uh, eight vouchers, uh, into the home, uh, which, you know, pay the rent, um, guarantee the rent. And, uh, and he partnered with a, um, at the time, Jewish Family and Children's Services, a social service provider. Um, so we were able to provide that home for, for eight individuals with intellectual disabilities. Uh, Jack Roach then, uh, built, he had another house that he was looking to sell individually. And he built two more next to it and went into an expanded program, um, with, uh, JF and CS, um, with, uh, I think there were seven or eight per house. So, um, that was, uh, they were privately funded at the beginning, um, through the families. And, um, they, uh, now I understand many of them, if not close to 80% or 90% of them have Section 8 vouchers. Um, again, that are, because they applied at the time they moved in and it just takes time to come off the waiting list. And, you know, Brian's aware of that stuff and Brian's a colleague for a long time. So I want to say hi to Brian before we move on. But, um, I was listening to you, your conversation earlier. Um, and you mentioned, uh, DDS providing funding. We've had difficulty with DDS getting funding. So I'm, that was nice to hear that they're doing some of that additional funding. I know there has been a shift over the last, uh, few years, uh, because at the time we, we did this construction. Well, we didn't do the construction. The time we were doing these programming, um, they were insistent on, on, uh, their model, which, um, limited the number of people. So like where Jack, um, developed his three units of three buildings at Wilson street, they wouldn't allow more than, uh, I think it was five or six people per, per unit. Um, and I know they've since, uh, changed that. They actually took over, um, managed, uh, running the program at one of his, at a fourth building in Walpole that, that they, uh, built. Um, so there are some models out there, uh, and they're supervised, but not necessarily 24. Well, there's somebody that 24 seven, but they're not necessarily full of medical supervision or anything. So, um, the people tend to, uh, you know, have more freedom. They get out and go to work and things like that. So there are some programs out there, uh, and bringing that, that sandwich of funding together is, is the tricky part. Um, so, um, I know you have an opportunity in Whale and to, uh, develop a, um, the type of building. It would have, uh, a home strength, intellectual, disabled, disabled people. And I know somebody said that, you know, it doesn't just affect people of lower income. It affects people of all incomes. And so there are some families that can provide, but it's always looking forward to the end game when parents aren't around anymore. And I know that, that was one of the things you were talking about too. So it's, it's a real multifaceted program to be put together. I was thrilled to hear that. It sounds like the state is supporting some of the, some of that work. I forget who was mentioning it. I think John was, um, that, um, because, you know, to, to have a unit or a house for one person, and then to have staffing there. That's, I haven't heard that, that they would make that kind of commitment. So I'm not sure if that's doable, but behaviors of an intellectually disabled, disabled person can be. I don't want to say control because that's not the word, but they can be adjusted to and buildings can be constructed or, or, you know, units can be segregated to the point where the noise is not the biggest issue. It's, um, and socialization can be a positive thing. Uh, I know at Wilson street, there's been several stories of real positive socialization between the residents and even the neighbors, the private neighbors. So, um, it, it's not like you just, oh, here's a house and you know, you move your son into it and that's it. And we're going to staff it forever. I would have, I'd be real reluctant to believe anybody on that. Cause at some point somebody's down the line, it could be 10 years down the line. The state's going to say, wait, we can't do this anymore. And then force that person into, into a group type of facility. So, um, you're at a point here where the building is, you're looking to build on this property. And, um, you know, it's finding a, uh, I assume finding a developer that would, that would be willing to partner with the town. Um, exactly. Is that really, that's right. It's a, it's a vacant piece of land. And, uh, it's not contemplated that the town would develop this, but rather we would, uh, anticipate that the, uh, select board would issue an RFP, uh, for, uh, developer slash service provider, uh, to, uh, provide the housing. Um, yeah, that, that would be one way to do it. Or the town could declare it access and allow the housing authority to do that type of RFP as well. Right. Um, that's where you have more, a little more expertise in the housing. Um, we, uh, we, we presently have, uh, a vote of the town meeting that authorizes the select board to dispose of the property on terms and conditions it deems appropriate. So we need to go back to the town meeting, uh, which is good. Um, and obviously, uh, Brian is an important member of this committee. And so, uh, we're really trying to work together and draw on the expertise of Brian and, and John and, uh, Jean and others. And Bill is here representing, uh, the, uh, interests of the neighbors, but also is a physician working with, uh, children, uh, many of whom I guess have, uh, challenges as well. So, uh, we think we have a good group. Um, other questions of, uh, Mr. Merritt about his, uh, very interesting project in Norwood. I think it's, it's, uh, very interesting that you have, it seems like a more independent model less dependent on the state, which, which is interesting because whenever you get the state involved, you definitely lose control. But, uh, I, you know, I think as far as long-term, uh, stability, we're probably going to have to get in, get the state involved as a practical matter. Yeah. Brian, the, some of the money that the individuals get does come through the state, but it goes to the individual or to the service provider. Um, and there are programs that I'm not fully, uh, up on, but, um, you know, there are requirements that they've always enforced. Uh, you know, and COVID was a major challenge because there had to be a certain number of hours that the service provider was there in order to get paid. But during COVID, a lot of the families took the young people home, um, because of the situation. So that created, you know, some, some, uh, logistical problems. And it seems like coming out of COVID, the state is a little bit more open to newer ideas. Um, so there's, there is state money into it, but as I said, the, um, the rental part. Um, became, uh, section eight, we did an RFP on, uh, for a developer and a, and a serve, with a service provider partner in order to do project-based vouchers. Um, at, at, um, at our first building, what we call the yellow house. But since then that the other three buildings that Jack had built and converted, um, they all started out with private pay and then, um, people were applying for. Section eight vouchers. And that takes a long time, but when you're there a long time, and these young people are going to need the housing for a long time, you do get there. Um, and I know I had to, we had people with vouchers from other housing authorities. That I would get the calls and say, well, how do you do it? How do you do this within the program? We'd have to educate them on, on how we were able to do it. We never got a no from HUD. Everything was either yes, or they didn't, they didn't offer an opinion. Um, so I know that the program's working again. Again, those eight units are project-based, but the units at Wilson are more, uh, individual, um, participants that have the voucher. Did you have an excess of, uh, eight, uh, vouchers that you could direct to this site? Or, uh, I'm just curious how, how that was, uh, able to be accomplished. Yeah, we, we had, um, roughly 300 vouchers. Um, they were fully, fully occupied. So it was through attrition. We were able to gain some, uh, over the course of a year for that purpose. Um, so it, you know, we did have some vouchers that would allow that. I mean, some housing authorities have very few vouchers and that would take forever to try to get the, um, the voucher back. But, uh, uh, and, you know, HUD was not issuing new vouchers at the time. Although they did come out with a, uh, funding proposal or a NOFA, I want to say around 2017 or so, 2018 maybe. Um, and they did issue some vouchers specifically for, uh, individuals with disabilities. Um, we also had a, um, federal property that, um, in order to, um, make it declared, uh, elderly only. Uh, we had to help fly through HUD and HUD gave us that permission, but they also, they back loaded us with some vouchers that were specific for younger individuals. So there's, I think there's 30 of those in our, in our 300. So we had some dedicated vouchers for younger disabled persons. Um, so we were able to kind of call it together. Um, and, uh, it, it takes creativity and it changes every, you know, every year is a little bit different, but, uh, um, and is there a particular service provider, uh, who, uh, works with the residents? Yeah. It changed from, uh, Jewish family and children's services because they turned away from the program back. I want to say 10 years ago. And we went through a search with Jack and his family, uh, for a new service provider. And, um, it took a while, but we did come up with a, uh, uh, company out of, uh, Newton. Hmm. His name escapes me right now, but, um, and they're doing, now they're doing the Wilson street. Um, there's a fourth house in Walpole is being done through a different provider that it was that, um, that Jay did. They just took that over about a year ago. Um, I know Chris Ferguson is, is now, uh, running the company. Jack passed away, unfortunately a few years ago, but, uh, Chris is his son-in-law and Chris's wife is Jack's daughter. And they're keeping the family going. They, the, uh, business going. And, uh, I know he came with me to a meeting in Wayland, the first meeting we had, or we came together. Um, so it's something that he's also addressing in doing. Um, it was, it was always his father-in-law's legacy to, to do something for somebody. And he started out wanting to do things for elderly folks. And we kind of turned them into, uh, an advocate for people with intellectual disabilities. So. Great. We were fortunate there. How, how does the, uh, how do the finances work? Uh, I, I gather the residents pay what they can afford to pay under section eight. And do the families provide the balance? And is there a separate charge for the services, uh, provided by the service provider? Yeah. Yeah. So the, the, the rent is, um, if people have the voucher or if they're in our project base, they pay 30% of their income, uh, for the rent. And the housing authority receives HUD funding for the rest. Um, the, uh, private, the man, the, uh, service provider gets paid either through state funding, through a couple of their programs. But there's also some contribution from the family as well to that point of it, the, the, the service provider family doesn't have to pay any of the rent that's taken from the income. Uh, you know, the individual may have social security. Uh, so there's some, uh, rent comes from that and the, uh, the HUD funding. Bill, did you have a question? I had a couple. So for these individuals, they're still fairly independent, right? They don't need one-to-one staffing support or, um, there doesn't need to be additional housing for the people who support them. Or does there is additional, there is a unit in each of the buildings for a cert for a provider. So even the yellow house has a two bedroom, um, two bedrooms, not two bedrooms. It's an old Victorian, uh, big old Victorian and new in Norwood. Um, and the other buildings were built with a, an apartment for, um, a live in, um, not necessarily an aid because it was a model was that they, there'd be a, um, someone living there and be there overnight, but they weren't required during the day because the day service is provided by other, other, uh, social service providers. Or may, in many cases, the, um, the client goes out to service providers as well during the day. And are there in your experience, are there a lot of developers interested in doing this type of work? Or is it, um, kind of a unicorn phenomenon? Like you find these special people who you have to search hard, but you fight, but they're there. Um, like how, how, how does it actually work in real life? I, you know, it's, it's, it's, there aren't a whole lot, but there are more unicorns than one might think, if you will. I mean, there are people, um, particularly when you're dealing with the principles of some companies who have, have this desire to do something positive. I mean, it's kind of remarkable because you don't see that in their everyday business, but if you can get to the individuals that, that control, you know, many times their family, uh, you know, long-time family companies. Um, and, uh, uh, I mean, Jack came to us looking to do something different and we were able to model it to this, this model. Um, there are others out there that, that have a, um, I mean, it basically comes down to everybody knows somebody who either is disabled or has a disabled relative. So you kind of play on that with, um, you know, and, and see if you can get someone to come into a deal. I mean, that's, and it's, I think it's happening more, uh, w we were copied by, um, a group out of, again, out of Newton and, uh, Malden. They went into Malden, uh, and the, the principal there, who is not there, was actually a former state official in, in the Department of Housing and Community Development. And, uh, you know, he'd come out and, and check us out and see what we were doing. And they modeled it after that, um, after us and, and were successful in, in, uh, I believe three houses or three buildings that they have, um, in the morning. Steve, thanks for, um, speaking to us today. Um, I was just curious, were your hands tied in terms of any kind of local preference? And, um, if not, how did you, how did you address that? Um, there is, uh, yeah, particularly with the, the section eight that you can't, you can have a local preference, but it can't be complete. Um, but how you address it is you're, you are local. Um, and, uh, um, there was never any, in Norway that we didn't have local people that weren't served. I don't, I, you know, we would, we maintain the waitlist for our project based units. Um, and the waitlist is always very low. I mean, there's only a few people on it. Um, we don't over promote it, uh, but it's, it's certainly available in public information. Um, and, uh, it, um, uh, it, it was never a big problem. Sometimes it'd be a little bit of a wait for a couple of people, but it always did. There'd be some opportunity at some point. Cause there is some change over people don't just go into these homes and stay there forever. They, you know, especially when Jack had the other two, there were some people that wanted to move into the private housing. And if they had a voucher, they were able to do that. Um, uh, again, and many of them were private pay as well. Um, so I, I wouldn't say a handcuff, but there are some restrictions. Definitely. Definitely. You know, and they can apply for, for vouchers in the, in the municipality they live in, in Massachusetts. All local housing authorities can administer their vouchers anywhere in the state, which is a unique to Massachusetts. But, um, so that helps, like we had vouchers from, from Natick and from, uh, um, we had one from Whalen, but we had one from maybe a Ford's Whalen, uh, that would come in. Those are the ones I remember and, uh, having to deal with, um, you know, the staffing to explain to them how to, how to run the paperwork through to get the, uh, approvals. You gotta be creative. And, and you know, I, I had a director in Cambridge once I worked there for a number of years and his, his, um, he would always teach us this. You don't take no, don't take no for an answer. You just keep pushing. And he dealt with HUD a lot. And, and, um, so we were really successful at doing it. And, uh, but it was a good lesson to learn. So you just, cause the first thing you get back is no. And then, you know, if you walk away, they win. If you don't walk away, the resident wins. And, um, you know, these residents are going to need assistance for the rest of their lives in most cases, particularly when the parents or guardians are no longer available. I have one last question, which is, did, uh, did the housing authority or the town own the property or did the developer own it? The developer owned it. Okay. And still does. Yep. So the housing authority is a partner for this, for the subsidy, but, um, we were not partnered for the, uh, property. So. Other questions of Mr. Barrett. Maybe related to that. Does, did the town put, um, requirements for owning that land? Like what if the, it becomes not sustainable and the developer decides to do something big with it or something like, are there, what are the restrictions from the town in terms of what could happen in the future? Uh, no, no, no, didn't put any restrictions on it. In fact, the, um, the first building and then subsequently the other three were all, um, approved by the building department through the, uh, Dover amendment. Cause there are educational aspects to it. And, um, you, and, um, it fit under the Dover amendment. So that this really kind of bypasses most of the zoning, uh, requirements. Um, I mean, there are some, but it, it does bypass. What happens, this is sort of a technical question. What, what would happen to a program that was cited and, uh, under the Dover amendment. If, if there was a change of use, I'm, I'm asking anybody here, has that ever happened? I mean, does, does that essentially protect that, uh, that, that use, or does, does it restrict the ability to use that parcel in perpetuity? If it, if it was developed under Dover? And I'm not an expert on it, but I would think the Dover. So I, um, the Dover amendment is kind of geared at the, the living situation. So in our yellow house, you had basically eight unrelated persons living in the house. Um, so that was covered under the Dover amendment, but local bylaws may limit that to, you know, two or three or something. Um, so if it changed usage and all of a sudden it's not, the Dover amendment is not, um, applicable, then there'd have to be a reduction in, um, in the number of people there. You couldn't rent out the eight rooms like a rooming house, unless you went and got a different, uh, uh, permit. You probably need it. So that might almost be a built in safeguard. Sure. Together with the possibility of deed restrictions or conditions of a ground lease. Yeah. Well, um, Mr. Mayor, we really appreciate your insight. This is really, uh, a very interesting model. And, uh, you're obviously, uh, knowledgeable about how these things are put together. Uh, and I'm particularly persuaded by your advice of, uh, don't take no for an answer. Uh, that that's, that's great. So, um, anyway, so, uh, thank you very much, uh, for your time. And, uh, it's really been interesting. Sure. If, if I can do anything or if we can, if you wanted to arrange a visit, um, I'm sure if you had a hold of Chris and we could, uh, you know, run a visit to the sites and kind of get, um, firsthand talk to people that are there and stuff. Um, and, and to the landlord, Chris. Thank you, Steve. Good to see you. Good to see you. See if we can get you some more work, Ryan. Always. All right. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. We are joined by Ronnie Kessler, Director of Student Services and the Title IX Coordinator for the Wayland Public Schools. Uh, good afternoon. Hi. I don't, I just realized my name says Thomas Faye. Sorry. I don't, I'm not quite sure why, but, um, here, I'll try to rename myself. Hello, everyone. We, we had that confusion with, uh, Mr. Merritt. So, uh, there we go. Great. Well, um, thank you so much for joining us. Um, I'm sure you and Tom have, uh, chatted. Uh, I'm Bill Whitney, a member of the select board and, uh, pinch hitting for Tom as he is, uh, tied up. Um, and I'm sure he described to you the purpose of this committee is to make recommendations to the select board about, uh, housing for people, uh, with disabilities. And we're particularly interested in the, the whole phenomenon of, uh, students aging out. Um, and, uh, Tom thought you would be a particularly valuable resource, uh, to let us give us your insight about, uh, uh, uh, the extent to which, uh, you, you see this, uh, what your experience has been and, and, uh, what advice you might have for this committee. Sure. Um, so I can, in terms of aging out, um, students are eligible. Some students are eligible for special education services from age three to 22. Um, you know, it's typical for students to graduate high school and, um, go on to college or work or, um, and they, and their education and their special education services at 18. However, there are, um, a group of adults of students, um, who require services beyond graduation, beyond 18. So, um, special education can go from 18 to 22. Um, and those are typically transition programs. They're typically for students with intellectual impairments, potentially autism, some students who may have missed a lot of school due to emotional disabilities, um, who are working towards their diploma and some who are working towards just learning life skills, um, job skills, things like that. At 22, um, students are no longer eligible for special education services. Um, a lot of parents actually have said it feels like falling off a cliff because up until 22 from your, since your child was three, especially if you have a child with a pretty significant disability, the school is, um, it's, it's not an entitlement. It's a, it's a, it's, it's, you have to provide it, right? It's a, uh, it's an entitlement. I'm sorry. Um, so students are entitled to these services up until 22, and we have laws and regulations. And when students hit 22, they are often referred to agencies like DDS, developmental disability services or DMH, Department of Mental Health. And those services are really based on funding, um, and they're not entitled to them. They can get them, but they have to apply for them. And there's a lot of wait lists, especially since the pandemic, there's a lot of wait lists. Um, and they're also wherever you get a spot. So if you're a student who, if your child has like a significant intellectual impairment or autism and requires like a residential facility, and they have been maybe residential all through, you know, up until their, you know, for how many years, but up until 22, then at 22, they have, they, um, could be eligible for DDS, um, services, but you don't know where that's going to be. Um, you know, there's some around, they're all over the state. Um, but it's the spots are very coveted. So when you've got one, you, you kind of take it. So you don't know necessarily where you're going to go. Um, also, um, DDS services, like the, so in, in special education, we have laws and regulations. So like if a parent doesn't sign something or do something like I'm going to follow up with them. DDS, um, if you don't follow up, you're not going to get the services. So, um, it's really on the parent. If they're the guardian or the student to really follow up, um, with them, because if you don't, then they don't, they're not, the services aren't entitled. So, um, as a school district, we fill out something called a 688 referral when a student is close to aging out. So we get them in the queue for services that they'll need. And we start inviting those agencies to meetings so we can kind of start that transition. But once they hit 22, um, they're, you know, um, the school district is no longer involved. So it is a pretty big, um, need in the, especially since the pandemic, it's a big need. Um, but also, um, like I said, there's a lot of wait lists and things and, um, it's, it's difficult. You know, if you have a child who, um, has a significant disability, they may be living, you know, further away from you and that can be hard. So that's just a little background into what that age 22 means and why it's so, um, you hear it a lot. Sure. Thank you. Stephanie, go ahead. A little question. I might've missed it, but, um, but in terms of the percentages of kids coming through the next few years or the last few years that you've seen, what are they primarily would, would be the type of population that would, would need this kind this kind of, um, like what would might need a group home or residential, um, services in the area. Um, so, um, we have a small percentage in Wayland. Um, we just started an 18 to 22 program actually at Wayland high school. And then we have a small group of students who are outplaced at placements, but, um, I think I shared a chart with Tom a while ago of like the numbers. Um, it's not, we don't have a huge population here in Wayland of, um, students who would need this level of support. Our surrounding districts, Framingham, Natick, Wellesley have larger need as, um, than we do. But, um, you know, we do have a, a group, um, of, of, of students. Um, it's not, it's not huge. I can get the exact numbers. It also is based on like, you know, there's a couple of kids aging out this year. There'll be a couple of kids aging out next year. Um, and so forth. Okay. Do you have, um, a special, or any separated classrooms for, you know, at least for part of the day? And, and who was in those classrooms? Sure. Um, at, um, elementary school at Clay Pit, um, we have, um, a couple of different programs. We have a program called Milestones. That's for our students with more significant, um, needs with autism, who primarily communicate with a, um, device. Um, and they're really fully sub separate. And then we have another program called Achieve, which also has students with autism and other disabilities. And they are kind of partial inclusion. They have some inclusion and they have some sub separate. And then we have a program there for students with emotional disabilities. Um, same thing and language based disability, same thing. And then those programs move up and we have them at the middle school and the high school. The populations change slightly as kids grow. So, um, our population at the middle school right now is we don't have any kids there who are fully sub separate. Um, those kids, um, all of the students there, um, do have our art full or partially included. We don't have any full sub separate. Um, we do have a couple of high school and we do have a clay pit next year. That may change based as kids move. Ronnie, thanks for joining us today. And, uh, thanks for your past support. And Ronnie helped, uh, Brian and I put to put the, um, our, our white paper together. So thanks again for your, your past contributions. Um, when you were talking about sort of, you know, the, the characterization of all the kids that are in the pipeline, you know, the go going, um, you know, taking into account all the years. Right. Um, what I'm sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to, how to phrase this question. Does that include when, when you're describing that there's not a lot of folks that are, that are in the pipeline that would be looking for this kind of a residential model? Does that include, uh, anybody that's currently being served, who's being served out of district? Um, so when I'm thinking about it, I am including the students who are out of district. So, you know, when I'm thinking about this, I don't know anybody who's aged out prior, so I don't know anybody, you know, I, this is my third year in Wayland. So I don't really know anybody who, if they had aged before that time, or I don't have that history. Um, but I am, we have a, about, you know, less than 40 kids out of district. So, um, there's a handful less than five, but, um, probably about five who would, um, require this type of, you know, services. Um, and they probably aging out in the next four to five years, three to five years. I mean, was, is it fair to say that they'd be probably, um, kids that are, that are, uh, more profoundly disabled than the kids are being served in district? Do you think it would be helpful for, for this committee to hear from some of those families? Yeah, probably. Um, yeah, I can reach out to some of the families, um, and, you know, see about if they would be interested in touching, conducting with all of you. Because I think we're, one of the things that we're trying to do is to, to sort of conduct as, as much as we can try to conduct an audit of what the needs of our own community would be. And then perhaps, uh, expand outwards to contiguous communities, um, if, if need be. But I think it would be really helpful for, for this group anyway, to, to get some sense of what the needs are, um, within the town of Wayland. And I, I would think, you know, my, my natural inclination would be to, to talk to the families. I mean, who better to, to ask that question of, of, would be, would be the families of kids that are, that are going to be aging out soon. Um, people that are probably, um, more profoundly disabled, um, um, or would be the, the, the typical, um, person that we would probably envision being served in this, this kind of, uh, a program. Mm-hmm. I can reach out to, um, the families and see if anybody would be interested and, um, get them in touch with you. Um, I mean, I don't, I don't speak for the committee, but do, do other people feel like that would be helpful? Yeah, I think, um, get a handle on who we should be serving and what, what population, what's feasible to, to, uh, means, you know, some populations may not be feasible in this community, but, um, there may be some. Um, needs that are manageable within the context of what we're trying to do. Yeah, I can kind of, um, get in touch with a wide range of parents and, um, get them in touch with you. That would be great. I think Tom would be the logical point of contact. Mm-hmm. But I had a question. Um, one priority for this group is to try to keep these individuals close to their families. Um, and, um, from either your past experience or you're maybe not even specifically for Wayland, is that a difficult thing, um, to keep people close to their families in terms of, um, availability and supply? And then I guess related to that, um, is have you ever heard of any sort of regional approach where three or four towns might get together and partner to take care of these individuals? Um, where one town might have availability and another might not, or is it just too unique? Each situation is kind of unique and it doesn't really lend itself to that. Um, but to your first question, yes. Um, you know, it can really vary. So basically DDS will get, you know, I'll make a referral to DDS. The parents will fill out an application and this is typically starting, you know, four years before they're aging out. I mean, that's how far out we're trying to, um, start getting kids on wait lists, um, for programs. So, um, and to secure funding for them. Um, so, um, as it starts to get closer, then DDS reaches out to different places to see about what the weight is. And, you know, it can be far, um, you know, you don't want, if you get a spot somewhere and it's, you know, an hour away, you don't often parents want to take it because, you know, maybe they like the program and it looks good. And, and they would feel comfortable having their child there, but it's an hour away, um, and the likelihood of finding somewhere that's closer may happen, but it may take a couple years. Um, so yeah, you can often be pretty far, um, can also be, um, you know, our goal is to keep kids in district and in their environment, or at least close by in schools. And if you're going then to a completely different community, um, that's a whole, you know, that's a big change. Think about anybody, but with, uh, um, with kids with, you know, who are very routine and their surroundings and then it's all changed. So that can be really difficult. Um, I don't know of partnering, but I think it's a great idea. Um, I think, especially since we are such a small town, um, you would, um, I think it would be great to be able to partner with other districts. Um, and, uh, you know, see, um, how we can help as a, as a community, even beyond Wayland. But, um, I don't, um, I don't have like information on anybody who's done in the past. Thanks. Other questions of Ronnie? Well, thank you. We really appreciate your taking the time and, uh, uh, as well as, uh, for the important work that you do, um, working with these families, uh, four years in advance. Uh, sounds daunting, but it sounds like something you really have to do, uh, given, uh, the complexity and limited availability of, uh, these programs. Um, can I just ask if Ronnie, what would you do if you were on this committee? What would you recommend? Oh, um, I mean, I do think talking to the parents is a really good idea. Um, I think, um, maybe, maybe to Bill's point around, um, reaching out. Um, like I know for instance, Wellesley just started, um, a transition, a really robust program college. Um, so I don't know if they have like a bigger population and what they're doing. Um, but given your experience with the high school community, what, what do you see is the biggest need for the Wayland's kids in the Wayland school system? Um, what would you focus your attention on? Um, I, I would think about places where the, like, where your, where student or adult, I guess, um, would be able to live and, um, with support. And be able to have access to their community. Um, what would that population look like? Who, what's the biggest need that you're seeing? In terms of like. Disability. Uh, it's intellectually impaired and autism. Um, I would say, uh, they go pretty hand in hand, but, um, um, autism is probably maybe bigger. Um, that's a big popular, that, that's probably. The, the highest. Yeah. I need students with autism. Thank you. Yep. Oh, I can't hear you. Well, Jean, are you muted? Can't hear you. No, you're muted. Now, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. There was a cat on my computer. Um, are there many Wayland kids up at Corwin Russell? Uh, no. Okay. Just wondered. Um, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think they have quite a few autistic children. Um, yeah. Corwin Russell is a small school. Um, it's an approved out of district school. Um, it focuses mostly with students. Um, well, um, with more social pragmatics. They do have autism diagnosis, but, um, more, um, difficulty with like social skills, perspective taking as a, and they're all like, so students, they are very, are verbal and they're pretty high achieving, but that social piece is a real challenge for them. Anxiety can be a challenge. Um, but they're all, um, uh, most are college bound actually. Okay. Anything further? Well, thank you, Ronnie. Again, this has been great. And, uh, uh, we appreciate your willingness to do outreach to the families to see if, uh, we, uh, can benefit from their experience as well. I certainly will. I'll be in touch. Terrific. Thanks very much. Thank you. Have a good day. Thanks. Okay. Uh, Tom indicated that, uh, we really have nothing new on, uh, the agenda, uh, with risk or with agenda item number six, uh, agenda item number seven is topics not recently anticipated 48 hours in advance. I'm unaware of those. Tom left off adjournment on the agenda. So I guess we have to keep talking unless someone wants to make a motion. We, uh, amend the, uh, uh, agenda to adjourn. Is there a second? Second. Those in favor of adjourning bill. Yes. Uh, Jean. Yes. John. Yes. Brian. Brian. Are you a yes. Raise your hand, Brian. Yes. Okay. And Stephanie. Yes. All right. Thank you all. It's.