April 29, 2026 – Planning Board – Video & Transcript
April 29, 2026 - Planning Board
It's April the 29th. It's 7 o'clock p.m.
And this is the Wayland Planning Board and in-person access.
We're at the Wayland Council on Aging Community Center at 8 Andrew Avenue.
The agenda. Well, why don't I call the meeting to order first and take attendance.
Jesse Newberry here. I reminded you.
Robin Borgestedt here. Larry Kiernan here. Annette Lewis here.
We have a quorum. All five of us are here.
The agenda for this evening is PB 2602, public hearing on 289 Boston Post Road, the Dunkin' Donuts Jimmy John's site.
They have applied for site plan approval for outdoor dining per Section 198.
Dash 1102.1.1.1.
Then we have public hearing on proposed amendments to the town code.
Chapter 198 zoning. Article 6 appeals of planning board site plan decisions.
And the proposed amendments are to Section 198.
603, 604, 607 and a new 610.
Next.
Next item is discussion of the report to town meeting on the zoning article 6 appeals that we would have just heard.
Then approximately 830 might be a little later.
PB 2303, 8 Andrew Avenue Council on Aging Community Center.
Request for an amendment to the 8923 phase one site plan decision.
We have to consider.
An amendment for additional time for completion of plans and then review and approve the draft minutes for 1526.
Then updates from the town planner and the chair and members preparation for annual town meeting. We're going to discuss our assignments for town meeting. I'm not aware of anything. That. Wasn't anticipated.
I mean, 48 hours in advance of the meeting and then we'll return.
Robert, are the people online?
Can you reach out to them and give them a link? Just in case they did. Catch them again.
The telephone number.
The only on number Harry's phone. I got like an office number. Well, would be nothing.
We're not early after 7 0 5.
Well, this is a first. It is. We've been stood up for design review. We've never been stood up. Oh, seriously. Nobody. Well, Robert's working on that. Why don't we see if we can look at the minutes?
Definitely.
For 1526. We haven't opened the public hearing yet either, so we don't have to recess it.
I thought they were fine. Are they in here? I have one. They're back before the schedule for next year.
You know, Jesse, how are you with the minutes? Reviewed and I thought they were good. I thought they read well. I have a motion to approve the minutes of 415 26 as presented. I move that we approve the minutes of 415 26 as present. I'll second. All in favor, Jesse Newberry. Yes. I remanded you. Yes. Robin Borgestedt. Yes. Larry Kiernan. Yes. Annette Lewis. Yes. That's 5-0. All in favor? Okay. So we've done that. I can't believe these people aren't here.
Do you think? I wonder if they're at town hall? I don't know. Is there somebody that we can ask to look for them? Is there anyone over there you can call? That's my brother. That's my brother. In the meantime, I think they would have gotten there and then realized they were in the wrong place by now. Well, he was out of the building and they said, get it. Jesse, you probably didn't hear, but the person you were sort of dealing with on the solar stuff is no longer with the town. Oh, wow. Okay. People just say, move down. Okay. So I'm still waiting to have a meeting with... Oh, wow. The town manager and at least Robert to just explain to him what has to happen under the new statute so that we can get all of the boards functioning together and the staff and he'll have to decide who's going to hold out on it. Okay. That's good. Everybody's checking. I asked them to just check to see if anybody's there for the public hearing at the town hall, but... I feel like they want to do it. I feel like they want to do it. They would have dropped an email or something. Hold on. So how do you update the website? Public hearing. So that the thing in the newspaper wasn't right either now? Yep. They modified it. Yeah. I noticed it pretty quickly. They're on their way. I went and gave them the Zoom information. It said they're on their way? Well, she's asking questions. Nicole, your representative. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. For town meeting, let's just go on to that. Larry, you're going to be presenting the floodplain thing. I will not. I have the wording for someone to present, but for reasons I don't want to go into, I will not be presenting. Okay. Though I have the – I wrote a speech. Okay. teacher, whatever, to introduce it. Okay.
That you would give to the person who. Yeah. Yeah. I've got it outlined. Jesse, how do you feel about picking up the floodplain thing since you don't have your solar thing anymore? I have nothing better to do, Annette. Yeah, right. I have nothing better to do either. You'll get to decide in a short time whether you want to do that or something else. Because we have another thing coming up. Yeah, I'll take that one on. That's fine. Larry. I will send you this wording right now. Awesome. Okay. And we can discuss. It's really not that complicated. Sounds good. Yeah, I'm happy to do that for you. And I'll be happy to talk you through what we did in the amendments should you wish to do that. Okay. Nathan, I'll pick up. Okay. Wait a minute. You ready for public hearing? Is it here? She's in a morning to panel. Oh, okay.
And can you just, before I open the hearing, just want to make sure I know who you are. Hi, my name is Nicole Sullivan. And you're here for the. I am here for the Duncan Jimmy John's outdoor seating. Okay. I'm going to call the public hearing. Order.
715. 715. This is PB 2602 public hearing on 289 Boston Post Road. Duncan Donuts, Jimmy John's site plan approval for outdoor dining for section 198 1102.1.1.1. And who is here for the applicant and state your name? Your address. And your position with the company. My name is Nicole Sullivan. The my address is 72 Junction Square Drive. Concord, Mass. 01742. And I handle all of our construction and remodels for the patient network. For the. The patient network. Is that what you said? Yes. P E C E. P E S C E. Thank you. Thank you. So you're the last. That's the last name of the. I know. I never knew that's how you pronounced it. Thank you.
So a little bit of background. Don't get donors applied for special primary, the CBA and then got approval for the use and also the science. And at the time the decision, they weren't ready to apply for the site plan, but then inside the decision in the decision for the CBA, there was a conditions that's free for you put out those seeing you must go to play. But for so. Outward outdoor seating site plan. And that's where we are today. They're asking for approval. The building has been built. The patio is there. They just are asking for approval with the table and seats on the patio and these ones. And so I think the board and me have some questions, technical questions to figure out before any kind of approval is given. Kate, do you want to make your presentation? So we're proposing 16 seats outside. I thought it was 14 seats outside. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. 14.
You are right. Okay. Sorry about that. Robert, you have all the specs on the furniture. Were there any questions on anything?
Yeah. There are a bunch of questions. Oh, okay. Yeah. So you created a pad of concrete and around it you put a fence. And then you put in three tables. If you could just go through that, that would be helpful and so that everyone hears it. Sure. So in an effort to utilize the existing area that was there with the patio, it was the old drive-through from the bank. We decided to put some outdoor seating. We thought it would be really well received by customers. We've got a ton of people really excited about it. Just from the fact that we've got a lot of people. So we're proposing to put three four-top seating and one three-top. No, three, I think, no. Oh, did I get it back? Sorry. I'm sorry. I have some technical difficulties getting on, so I don't have my computer. Oh, sorry. You're doing three tables with four seats and then one table with two seats. Okay. Yes. I don't have the plan. I don't have the plan in front of me because I'm not on my computer.
In looking at the plan, there were no dimensions for the tables and chairs. And it looks like when the chairs are pushed out to get seated, that they're going to hit each other. Did you factor that in?
Yes, we did. We actually have all the seating already, even though we're not allowed to have it out. And we've put it out to make sure that it fits. It's all upstairs in our attic.
So when you put this, if you're sitting on either end of the tables facing the middle table and the chairs out from the closest one in the middle table to the closest one in the end table, and they're heading toward the door. I'm happy to, you know, if anybody wants to come by, if we want to demonstrate or I can mark it out with some tape. Just asking a bunch of questions to others to ask first. I saw it looked very well reinforced because that was the old drive-thru. I thought it was drive-thru window. At first. And then I walked up and saw there's no way to get a car in there. So it looked covered and a good use of that drive-thru. So how many employees do you have in the building at any one time? The most that are on shift at one time is five.
Which would then require five spaces. Yes. And one space for every four seats. And you have 18. Well, that's five at the most, but yes. And I think I could get you an exact number, but some of them don't drive. So I don't have, I can tell you at any time there's not five employees parked there, even if there are five working. That's for today. I'm just going by the bylaw. So I'll tell you what I see and you tell me how to fix it. Okay. Good. The bylaw requires one space for each employee. And each three, three spaces, one space for three employees. Are you sure? Because I thought I saw one space for each employee. Let me look it up. It's 506, 1.3 or restaurant, tea rooms, lunch counters, or other facilities, eating or drinking one parking space for each three plus one every four seats. Okay. So I had, if it's three, then yes, that's actually two parking spaces for employees, plus eight parking spaces for the seats. So you have a net of 10. I'm sorry. So it's one space for each three employees. If you have five, then we're wrapped in two. So we have two spaces. Yep. Right. And then there's 18 seats inside, 14 seats outside, which is 32. It's one for each four seats. So 32 divided by four. One is eight. Right. So you have 10 parking spaces is what's required based on the zoning.
Okay. And it looks like your specs show 11 spaces.
And I got that not from what you submitted to us, but from what was at the zoning board. Is that correct or not? That's correct. Okay. And one of them is handicapped accessible. And based on the code, you'll need one. Okay. They're good. Yeah. I just checked the code. Great. Thank you. Yep. On the second floor, there's a 12-seat conference area. What is that used for? Well, at the moment, there is no seating up there except for our patio seating. Down the road, we plan to use this as a training center so that we can train employees. As it is right now, we have to send our Jimmy John's employees to other franchisees' stores to train them. So the plan was to use this as our training store. But if there is going to be conference room seating up there, it's going to be one of the conference tables that you can kind of take apart, similar to what you guys are using right now. It's not going to be an all-the-time thing. Right. But you have 11 spaces. You need 10, except that if you've got a 12-seat conference center going on at the same time as the other things. You're short some spaces. How often would that be, Nicole? How often would they overlap?
Because it's not something that we do yet. I don't want to give you an inaccurate answer. If I had to guess, I would say it would be maybe once every three months for two days.
The seating requirement is not for the retail use. It's for any seats in the building. Wow. It's applied for as a restaurant, so I don't know. Let's go back, Robert, and look at the... I mean, if it's going to be a deal-breaker, I'm happy to not have seating upstairs. We don't want to make you not do it. We want you to be able to use the facility the way you'd like to use it. I just want to make sure that if we're giving you leeway, that we say we're giving you leeway. And if we're not giving you leeway, then we're not. Do you know what I mean? I just wanted in the... Of course. The closest would be... The educational training center, one parking space for each employee, plus one space for each structure, plus one parking space for each 1.5 student based on this allowed... That's a lot of space. Yeah, that's a real training center. That's not what... Right. When you say training, that's not what it is. There's nothing else that one could point to?
Nothing else in these things? I mean... So is it the case that your parking is on the side near where... Where the outdoor seating is, and then right in front of the main entrance? Is that it? Do you have more? That's correct. We have the same parking footprint that the bank had previously. Okay. Thank you. I don't think that's that big of an issue. It's not like they're going to be doing... Like, this is the only place where they're going to be doing training all the time. It just might send them a little tighter. That's the question for the board to decide. If it's right, if it's happening all the time, maybe a week or something, or like two or three times a week, that's a different story than, you know, once every little bit, you know, once every three months. They're not required to leave the... What used to be the drive-thru lane open, are they? There's no... It's not like a fire... I think it is. Is it?
The drive-thru lane is open so that you can get to your storage facility in the back, isn't it?
Yes. Well, there's no... There's no outside access to the walk-in cooler, which is what I believe you're referencing. We access that from inside the store. Okay. And what do you use that driveway for? Well, the only person that's really using it at the moment is my trash company when they come pick up the trash. I mean, you do have some people that are driving around just, I would imagine, because they think it's a drive-thru.
And they're very disappointed when it's not. You know, I am saying cars once in a while will go through there, but really the only function that we need that for is for the trash. That's the only way the public can get around the building. Did the fire department make any comments on that? Did they want to keep that open? They didn't tell me anything one way or the other. I would think that they would because on the other side is parking and they would need to get in to get access to that side of the building. Yeah. But if it's not, then they could call those spaces available for when they have a conference. When they're doing training, they could have just employees. They could mark it as like employee parking. Because if everybody who came for training parked there, they all come together and they all leave together. That is typically the case, yes. A lot of our employees carpool. So if the fire department doesn't require that access. It's such a small building. I assume they. Come from the front, but well, the cooking is in the rear, so they would probably go go into the cooking is mostly on the side. That's the kitchen there. That's just where they're serving stuff from. This is the kitchen over here. Sorry.
Park here.
Yeah, it's a small I don't know. So I guess if we wanted to know the extra space. So parking, we could have them resolve this with the fire department, whether they require that access or not.
These are just questions. Don't get anxious. Okay. So the winter, are you going to plan on keeping it out? Are you going to take it in? We're going to take it in. It's just going to be seasonal. So you're looking at like, oh, like once it gets, I guess she gets warm outside and then to like October, November, when is that? She says, I'm sure it's not dropping. Yeah, I think. The end of November is typically when we take all of our seating in that seasonal and that's a fair guess.
Do you have I didn't notice any outdoor refuse containers. We do plan. I isn't a playboy. I drove by today and saw them on the threats. It's too bad. Where are they located? They're located right here. And he is to them. I saw two trash cans when I drove by today. I'm sorry, I can't put that up on the screen there. They're on the pad. And the reasoning behind that is I know sometimes you guys may like them by the front entrance. What we see happen a lot is people when you have a trash can by the front entrance of any business, they will empty their week's worth of McDonald's and Taco Bell and trash is one of the biggest expenses that we have. So if we don't need one by the front door, I'd love to not do one just to not start that habit. So on here and here, most likely this won't be moved because there's going to be two seats right there. But right now there's two trash cans. Yeah, we're not dealing with the front door because all we're looking at is outdoor seating. So when I got that and they left one here, that's probably good for me. Robert, the one that you made the second one that you may have seen would be. May have been like the porter trash can. We only have one on the pad. That's a permanent. They may have been taking the garbage out when you drove by. Okay.
So.
What about washing the seats? Is someone going to like wash them or like scrub them down? If so, how often? What do you plan upon putting that water? It's going to wash it out. They're pretty thick plastic PVC. I don't I have these chairs and there's not a time. We don't need to wash them. They get they get wiped down every so often. So I don't I don't think we're going to need to worry about pressure washing them or anything. What about when people are eating out there and food gets on the ground? Clean it up. So a big part of the cleaning standard in our store is our manager or all star does a travel path several times throughout the day. And part of that is picking up trash and. Right. So if you know that if you need to wash down the floor, the concrete panel or whatever pad, where does the water go from that?
They would probably take can't we have a we have a thing that's almost like a Swiffer and they would probably just push it off the pad.
I mean, if they're if they're wiping something down, it's going to be, you know, a little bucket at most. If there's an accident or a spill out there, you don't have to clean it like you do the inside. Well, the inside, they're mopping all throughout the day. I think you're asking, are you not like a spray? Yeah. Spray the ground. The reason I was asking the question is there isn't any water. It didn't appear to be any water catchment. And if you're going to have excess water, where is it going to go?
I don't. I don't know that we would have any excess water from cleaning.
Well, if it was so dirty that you dumped a bucket of water on it to rinse it, that water is going to go off and run off of your your head. It's going to go on to the on to the paving.
When you mop your floor, you pick it up with the mop. Yes. And we also have floor drains for the back. Well, this is concrete. Yeah, it's concrete. And if you're throwing stuff. I think what they're asking is, will the water pool? At all, when you clean it, when you clean the concrete concrete area now, if anything, it's going to there's a little bit of a dip, so it would go down because there is, you know, remember, there is a little bit of an incline there for your wastewater capacity. What do you have for wastewater capacity?
What are you asking? What size? I'm assuming that you're in the wastewater management district commission. You don't have a septic system there? That's correct. So you have an allocation of gallons. Oh, I know we bought extra. I can tell you that. I don't have it in front of me, but I know we bought extra whenever it became available almost four years ago. I think what we'd like or what I'd like to know anyway is what your capacity is that you were given. And it's my understanding. That for a restaurant for each seat, you need 15 gallons per seat, and then there's a number of gallons that you need for the kitchen. So I think we even bought extra. I can certainly get you that number. I apologize. I don't have my laptop, but I we did buy extra. I think I could pull up the email with Sarah, but then I don't know how I'd get this back on. Are there issues with grease traps or any of that stuff? I'm assuming that they have. I'm assuming that the Wastewater Management District Commission would make them have grease traps. We do have a grease trap. It's cleaned quarterly.
On the plans that you gave us, they didn't show any kind of lighting on the patio. I'm assuming you're going to use it at night. That's correct. In the plans that were at the ZBA, it looked like there were 12 recess lights. That's correct. That's what's there. Yep. LED. Okay. And they would shine down, just down? Correct. You would use those in the evening hours? That's correct. Okay.
Do you ever get any comments from the Board of Health? You send it out to everybody. Yep. I don't know. No problem. That's great. Okay. What are your hours of operation? We are open 5 to 9, Monday through Saturday, and 5 to 8 on Sundays.
5 a.m. to 9 p.m. and 5 to 8 on Sunday. Correct. First part is Dunkin' Donuts opens, then Jimmy John will open a little later. So it will be a different kind of crowd coming in.
And so because you're not going to be leaving the patio open in cool weather, you're not going to have to do anything with auxiliary heating outside? That's correct. Does anybody else have any other questions? Did you ask for questions? Yes. I just wondered if there was a line to wait to get outside. Do you anticipate that happening? And if so, where would those people go?
A line of people waiting, you mean? Waiting to go out of the patio areas. Because the seating is full? Yeah, seating is full. I mean, I would love for that to be the case. That would be great.
But, you know, we want to maybe, if you guys are wanting us to put some limits on, you know, 30-minute limit, I don't want to have to do that. But if it's something we need to talk about, I'm open to. I assume it's just first come, first serve. Yeah, it's going to be first come, first serve. The only way I see that happening is you dump, like, 30 little middle school kids in that area. Because they would love to sit there and goof off and eat the sandwiches. But... Or they would just eat and they'd probably just leave, I guess. Or they'd just go and leave and go take their car and walk away. Like, nobody's going to sit there and wait. They're going to just go offsite. When the kids come, I've noticed, you know, because I've obviously been there a lot in the last three weeks, they're there 20, 25 minutes, and then they move on to the next place.
When do we make this decision? By the 23rd?
We have a meeting on the 13th. We do. And then what's going on after that? Yeah, I did. I did. You want to have one meeting between us before the deadline? One meeting between us? Okay. Yeah. I'd like to take a straw poll of the board and where they are. And I'd like to, if we can, get answers. And we'll state them again to the few questions that we asked so that we can condition them in the site plan. How does everybody feel about granting a site plan approval for the outdoor seating? I'm good. I would like some answer about the road and whether that can be designated for parking for these training events so that we can put that in there. Or if we can't put it in there, we would know.
But otherwise, I'm okay with it. Okay. I'm fine. Yes. And I am too. The things that I would like to be able, if you can get them to us relatively quickly, our next meeting is on May the 13th, and we'd like to have it in advance, several days in advance. I will send it to Robert as soon as I hang up the phone. Okay. Oh, okay. Well, there were several questions. If you have it now. Oh, you've got it. You've got it, but you can't access it. Yeah. If you're going to ask me about the water, I can answer that as soon as I hang up. Okay. So for parking spaces, let me just calculate again. So it would be 11 and you have 10, and that's one. And then. No, it's the other way around. They need 10 and they have 11 for just the restaurant. No, I know. I'm just, yep. And I'm just, and then for the conference area, they would need three, right? Four seats. If we're using the restaurant calculation. Yeah. I also don't see, I don't know how many seats it has on that upstairs table. No. The trainings are usually groups of four people at the most. And I think that table upstairs was just kind of a placeholder that my architect put on there. It's annoying. For a time. Then you're looking at probably like one parking space, but then you, then you have a little bit. Floating down. I think that, I think this is a way to work it out. If you do, you have to kind of like in the decision, have to like explain it a little bit. In the plan, it had 12 seats. If you're only going to do. Oh yeah. I'm not going to have 12 people training at that one time ever. Okay. So. You know, the, these combos. stores are very new for for the brand and for everybody and my architect this was the first one she did and she like i said it's it's a placeholder and knowing what i know you know this is our third combo we're never going to have more than four people training at the same time okay so um 10 11 so you would have enough spaces yeah because you have four four employees exactly okay and you know i certainly don't want to say anything that is going to get me in trouble but we actually the area you're talking about we had on the side of the building we have it filled in with gravel and we have been using it as employee parking as needed just so that we have every space available for the people that are coming in and enjoying our business so we're we're happy to park there on the side if everybody else is okay with that but if you have enough spaces now if you're only doing a conference area for four then you'd have enough spaces already is that okay is that a problem if we limit it to four no that's i'm fine and i'm happy to if you want me to revise that plan that's in front of you i'm happy to do that okay on the plan can you add the trash can absolutely and when you send that in can you also write something that says that the conference area on the second floor uh is a four-seat conference area or something like that so that we just have it for the record sure would you like me to also put how often we plan to use it just to cover all the bases that would be wonderful okay um and then uh real water capacity and your hours and generally we do put the hours in the site plan document so i'm assuming that's okay with you yeah that's fine so um i think that we might actually be able to vote now um because it sounds like everything will be coming in okay um can i have a motion to approve kids close public hearing us close it for us and then do it okay thank um can i have a motion to close the well i don't want to close the public hearing boring just then just give me and just and just because i want her to send in that information then just have then just thank you um can i have a motion to approve the site plan application for uh 26 it's a marriage attachment request right i just i don't want to be interested in like um as a site plan application for uh 26 and then the favored by the city council 합 we need to Mississippi city snuck절 602-829-289 Boston Post Road for Dunkin' Donuts Jimmy John's site plan approval for outdoor dining with the proviso that the decision list the number of parking spaces available that matches the number of parking spaces in the building and the conference area that the plan show the trash receptacle on the patio that the hours are five to nine Monday to Saturday five to eight Sunday and that we receive information on the wastewater capacity that is allocated to that facility. So moved. Second. Second. All in favor. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Great. So if you can send that stuff to Robert that would be terrific. And if you have it like right now, when you get off and you can send it to him, I can leave the hearing open until we get that. And then I can close the hearing. Okay. Yeah. Just give me a minute to find it. And if I, if it's something I need to access on my computer, I'll let him know either way. So I don't hold you back. Terrific. Okay. Cool question. I enjoyed coffee there the other day. Thank you. I walked from my house right there. I enjoy good Dunkin's. I avoided the donuts this time. How's it going? How's it going so far? Going great. We're very happy. The support from the town has been very nice and everybody seems to be really pleased that comes in. So we're very happy. Yeah. Great. Great to hear. Thanks. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. I will get into my email right now. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We're right now. Are we ready? Yes. Yeah. We're ready. Okay. Thank you. We'll continue this. Take a slight recess from this hearing to move on to another hearing, and then we'll come back and close this hearing once we receive the materials from the applicant. Okay. It is 7.9. It's 7.9 and this is a public. We're moving on to, we have temporarily rescheduled. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. board site plan decisions um and i'm going it's um being proposed by the select board um not the planning board so i am going to allow uh the representative from the select board to uh explain the bylaw to uh us and the public uh and then uh we'll have comments from the public and from the board does the microphone pick up here i have yes i think supposedly good evening everyone good evening member of the select board ray birch lane and i am here on behalf of be found in the warrant as article 40 entitled men town code planning board deals um and i'll give um and i'll give just a little bit of background information about the article um and discussions that our board has had a couple of times as well as several discussions that i've had with town council they worked on the language for us um so the catalyst for the introduction of this article occurred over the course of the past year as the town worked through three large development projects all of which happened to be under the dover amendment um the conversation with the butters from each of those projects as well as town council we began to examine timing for when appeals are permitted um after site plan review by this board so the current bylaw that governs those appeals can be found in section 198 604 specifically 604.9.1 which requires the denial or issuance of any required building permit by the building commissioner before a site plan decision of the planning board may be appealed
so in conversations with town council site plan review is an interesting entity unto itself i've been doing a bit of a deep dive with ms murray and she pointed to me to some seminal case law as well as some recent land court case law and it turns out that site plan review is isn't anywhere within the framework of chapter 48 zoning act it's a creature of municipalities bylaws pursuant to the home rule laws so in that sense we would be obviously amending a town bylaw here as spelled out in the warrant and it's broken into these two short sections under little a and little b and little a is inserting a new paragraph in section 198 607 entitled 198 607.2 decisions and then 607.2.1 is essentially essentially the triggering action in order for a party to be able to file an appeal and that triggering action is the filing of the site plan determination with the office of the town clerk at that point the clock for the appeal would begin to run and it would be a 20-day period where by which and a grief party may file an appeal the second part of that spells out essentially a threshold for larger projects projects uh of which we hope that this would apply to um although these discussions fomented because of the dover amendment projects we would not want this to be specifically dover amendment projects only but we were just trying to determine a threshold for what we deem larger projects in town and in conversations with town council with the building commissioner and others we came up with the two numbers contained in that language there under 610.1 um appeals which is 10 000 square feet uh alteration to a structure or alteration of more than 20 000 square feet of a site and then all other projects below that threshold would be um mandated by the current law that the same appeal process that is issuance or denial of a building permit um i would we were trying we were discussing what some examples of some of these larger projects would be that would not be dover amendment projects um had a little brainstorming discussion and items such as potentially a large grocery store or garden store perhaps even a solar farm would be something that would fit under this language as well um and then we also discussed because we had an initial meeting with you folks before the select board several weeks ago um potentially not having a threshold at all um the 10 000 and 20 000 square feet but we did determine as a board that we did want this to just apply to the large so-called larger projects um so that that's why we created that um and i conclude by saying the the idea behind this is in one way or another that we're not going to be able to do that without the support of the board
um we recognize that there could be some significant delay to the appeal process as of now but um that in part, that was just an option that we could give to the board. except a plan for a larger project to be issued in the near future um i think that's what i'm trying to say um i think that's what i'm trying to say right now um but i think that's the best thing that i could possibly say um and i think um what i delays between a site plan approval and when a building permit issues, we may in fact encounter that with the two projects that were recently approved, the other two Dover Amendment projects being the Carroll School and the Coptic Church. It may be months or the better part of a year before a building permit issues, at which point those aggrieved abutters may then be filing their appeal. Recognizing this won't apply to those two because this would need town meeting approval next week, but we were just trying to think ahead of what made sense for those for those larger projects where an appeal would be filed of the site plan determination by this board. What is the timing that made the most sense? And after conversations with town council, this is the language we can use. I'm happy to answer questions. Is there anybody on the line?
I'm going to hand it over. Okay. Let's hear from that person.
Can you hear me? Yes, please state your name and address. Absolutely. Luke Shardlow, 22 Shaw Drive. Thank you. So I would just like to comment in support of this motion. I was one of the aggrieved abutters. I was one of the parties involved in the Veritas Christian Academy approval and myself and quite a number of the neighborhood went through this process whereby the board approved the plan and we had to wait until constructions basically started to pursue any appeal. Just speaking personally, I mean, this process, massively increased the, the stress levels and it also increases the risk and exposure for all parties. Right. So I think if you talk to the VCA representative that we've been communicating with, Joseph, over the last months, you know, I'm, I would believe he would also state that waiting until construction starts didn't really serve them either. So. I think, you know, from our experience, the increased risk exposure for all parties, increased stress levels involved, you know, the fact that you can't appeal until things are already happening, it just makes no sense. So, you know, I'll pause there. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. I'm going to let you want to start, Robert? Sure. So I felt there were quite a few issues here. First of all, the way that it's written, this only requires the filing of the planning board decision if it's approved with conditions or denied. So in a case that we approve with no conditions, can't be appealed. So that's a bit of a, I don't know if it's a. law, but if it's what you intended, but it does leave out that one circumstance and granted, many of these projects are approved with conditions. If one wasn't, it wouldn't get filed with the town clerk. So that seemed like an issue. Has that occurred in your folks' time on the board where you've issued a determination with no conditions? Yeah. There have been some. Yeah? Mm-hmm. A large project. And the zoning board does as well. I think that the Islamic Center, their funeral building, I don't know that we had conditions on that. It was a condition, but it was a very small condition. It was still as conditions. But that's not over 10,000 square feet. That's problematic to begin with. Right. Yeah. If you look at the way that the bylaw, I'll let you talk in a minute, but if you look at the way the bylaw is set up to even get under site plan approval, you have to fit into certain size brackets, and then you have to have certain amount of parking and stuff. So I'm having difficulty understanding the 20,000 and 10,000 and how it relates to what's already in the bylaw at 601.2.3 and thereafter. Okay. So you have to look at 601.2.3 and 601.2.4. Yeah, I'm looking at how it creates the different sets of thresholds and talks about the SBRA. And so I was having a hard time, as somebody would have to administer this, trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Mm-hmm. I actually asked town council to take a look at that as well, but didn't have a chance to follow up because you brought this issue up with me directly. So I did flag this. For purposes of the article language, we just wanted to have a single threshold, but I understand the concern. What is the interplay with 601.2.3? I followed you, and I need to go down on that. Yeah, and keep going. And with regard to that, the 10,000 square feet or the 20,000 square feet, it's like, if I'm in a butter, I might not know that. I might not know that it reaches that threshold. Maybe it's. Maybe it's just over. Maybe it's just under.
And so, and it's something that, you know, we would obviously have to make a note of in our decision if they're over the threshold or under the threshold. So one more thing to add in, but it, then there was effect. So in the, I noted that in the finance committee's comments, they said that this is to allow residents to do this. But this applies to any. Any person in any person. So it's even the applicant. Yeah. Has this very short deadline. So, and granted they've been involved. They know they got denied or whatever. So, and do they now, if the applicant got approved, but then there's something up with how the building permit gets, gets issued. If they're not happy with that, can they no longer appeal? Because now they're, they're outside of that 20 day window. Can they not appeal the issuance of a building? A building permit that they're not happy with or something. So there were a couple of issues with that part of it.
And then let's see. I have some. Don't need to go through.
When we, I think when we had spoken before, there was some question as to whether this was intended to apply to Dover only. And so I guess under now it's not going to apply to Dover only. But I worry that because it does apply to Dover. If. The attorney general's office is going to say this can't apply to Dover. They're going to find that an illegal infringement on a Dover application. I don't know. That's not for me to say. And you never know what the attorney general's office is going to do. A wild card.
On that subject, do other towns have this kind of provision? I asked that very question to town council and she. She. Said that there are other towns are all over the map. As this case law says, because it's completely up to municipal bylaw. But she did say that, yes, there were a couple of other examples, not at this specific language, but that allows appeal after site plan determinations made by the planning board without having to wait for a building.
So I also take issue with where you've added things into the existing framework. I think you've said the whole, to add or subtract after site plan's in place. I take issue with where your laws are. And I also think that that would be a little bit of a question. And I think it goes back to what wyatt was saying, too. That the county will be developing a,"What is a building?" Here's what they're doing. There's a building. They're not using the same building as the town hall. We have to do this. And it's the same thing with the town hall. We have to have each building meet colors. We have to have the same building. We have to have the same building, but we're going to do it. So that's a large part of the reason why I'm seeking. And then I'm just not interested in this. I see a comment from a. My name. I'm Rob. for that filing i thought that is something that should be in here because that adds predictability whether you are a resident or not a resident we have 60 days to make a decision and so we have to file it before that 60 days is up and normally what what happens is we wind up having to get extensions of time and then we file it right at that time and is that when we file it is that with the town clerk because yeah we do that already right and the bylaw already requires us to file notice with the town clerk and that section is still in there you didn't take that out so
used to seeing it where it is it's at um 604.4 file notice of said decision with the town clerk
it says notice of decision which doesn't necessarily mean decision uh but it says a copy of set notice and the decision within 60 calendar days it does say on the decision yeah so i wasn't sure why you were putting a new section in okay thank you so what else you're up you know it's like we're at work um i think that this is such a if we're trying to improve the appellate rights of our residents i see this as more of a contraction of their rights because the the city looks very far ahead there's a lot less trust and a lot less
on this um it's permissible. But I would say that, you know, if somebody appeals within a certain number of days of a building permit issuing, then perhaps the building permit gets stayed for a certain number of days, that that's perhaps a better option. And interrupt the process there. And you know, you get a building permit, but before you can cut down 400 trees, there's a chance people will be like, or once you've cut down 30 trees, you know, like, oh my gosh, I can see where this is going now. You know, when they've staked it out to start digging a foundation, and you're like, wow, that is really close to my house, that then the people have a chance to appeal and it stops the building process. You know, that that might be a better option. Because some people really, when you look at plans on paper, there are people who it means nothing to.
And there may be people who are freaked out about it. And then when they actually start to do it, they're like, oh, that's actually not so bad. So it could go both ways. But what what you have is a really strict limitation on that right to appeal not mean it shifts the time a little bit, but I don't feel like it's necessarily in a good way. And it wouldn't stay just because you file suit, it wouldn't stay. wouldn't necessarily stay the building permit, but the building permits are probably not issued. To me, I think there's issues on both sides, right? It's, it's the, we make our decision. And there's a lot of times sometimes between when we make our decision and the building permit happens. And so we need to cover for that. I get why that's Jesse. Oh, Jesse, sorry. Sorry. And then, and then on the other side, too, after, after folks have a chance, like, you know, like Robin's point, if they're a visual person, and they don't really understand what's happening until they see it start to happen, we need to cover for both sides. So I think that's something that we need to cover for both sides of that somehow in here. And it should be time boxed somehow. But, again, you've got all that time between when we make a decision and when a building permit happens. So it's kind of, it's kind of a tough one to really truly time box. I mean, the other option is to have this 20 day window before building permits issue, but not have that be the only, you know, to open up a new period for appeals. I'm not sure I agree with that, either. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a very different way for us. I mean, a lot of, you know, I've just I've only worked with aЭedor for about two hours, it's a long journey and you'll just see an extraordinary thing happening. And I mean, there's great Todd, John Knie ten, and many of the other panelists that are typing on the chat, you know, we're building all these slides that are creating amazing things. So regardless of, you know, how we, how we see things happening in a clipboard would it be a best practice to set up a buffer there, in addition to an insurance? understanding how they can stop it.
I think this is to Jesse's point.
We want companies, people to know they can build in town if it's approved. Are we saying that Wayland residents don't have enough voice in any part of the current appeals process? Is that what this is trying to say? I know it's trying to introduce it earlier and that would help them stop whatever is going on. I do agree with the statement that said let's try to reduce risk on both sides. I'm not sure how this actually does that. It seems like it just gives one more pointed tool to the citizens. Maybe that's necessary. It doesn't feel like it. In my experience, obviously it's anecdotal. What I found in this most recent case, in this Veritas case, is sometimes an appeal can spark discussions and bring the two sides to the table to start some equivalent of a settlement negotiation. And what we found difficult was when we brought the applicant and the abutters to the table once construction had already started, the temperature was already so high in the room, they reached a meeting in the minds, but it was much more difficult to do that versus if those discussions had potentially happened earlier because the appeal had been filed earlier and sparked those discussions. The temperature was pretty high the first day of the first word. I mean, we tried to encourage those conversations very much. I mean, Doug, I know at our initial meeting on this, like this was one of the things that I brought up was, you know, we want people to participate in this process early on and we want them to come with their concerns. Right. And, and I do think sometimes it's tough to get that until they see the project to actually start and realize what's about to happen. And that's kind of how I feel about this case in particular. Yeah. But with some of our Dover applications, we've had some of them, the applicant is not interested in a dialogue. Correct. And so it's, yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until the rubber hit the road, maybe when the, when construction is threatened that they're willing to have a discussion in this room, willing to have a discussion, not that project, but the other some of the other projects. Yes. Um, are you done? Yes. Okay. I'm going to look at the language in your 610 and then one, two, three, four, fifth line. Um, you've got there after. And you want to read by zoning word of agreed by a decision of the zoning board of appeals. If there isn't a thereafter, if what, if there isn't a thereafter, if you got it out, you've got 30, you've got 20 days to file with the town clerk. Um, and they're after anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board of appeals may file to a court of competent jurisdiction in readings. And you have to go through this. It looked like maybe I'm reading it from now. It looked as though, um, if there is a decision that is issued by the CBA, not by the planning board, then you can't appeal because there's not a thereafter. It starts with any person agreed by a decision of the planning board with respect to site plan approval, uh, can appeal, uh, within 20 days. And then it says thereafter anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board. Some of our decision, our bylaw is set up so that site plan covers planning board and zoning board. So if the initial person or group issuing the permit is the zoning board, then they don't get a thereafter. And how, when do they get to appeal under 40 a 17 for a zoning board approval of the site plan? I follow you because this is only for an appeal of a planning board site. Yep. Um, and, and also for that, there isn't a mention well, that this section of the bylaw has been amended at least four times. I went back and looked at the history and looked at what it said in each of the, um, you know, meant the warrants for it. Um, and it's changed over time. It's basically the same. Uh, but the last time that it was changed, uh, it was changed in, I think it was 93. I mean, that's not the last time, but the last time that it got substantially this form was in 1993. And it said any person aggrieved by a decision of the planning board made it's required by this. And referred to a section, which is not the same section any longer may appeal said decision pursuant to mass general laws, 40 a section eight. And that is that section of the law says that, um, you can appeal from an administrative official. Okay. And then the bylaw went on to say any person agreed by a decision of the CBA made as required by this section of the bylaw may appeal. Ed decision pursuant to 40, a 17. So it's written now, it's not working because it's not hovering the zoning board.
What an instance where the ZBA would, what type of practice with the ZBA issue is site plan approval versus the planning board? A bunch of them. And in the bylaw, it spells out some of them. Um, would it depend now just looking at the site? If they are. terrain to the whole redevelopment that would have been triggered by a site plan and they knocked down the buildings and then rebuilt the buildings that would go to zba and it would have been a site plan and a special right so we could do and site plan doesn't apply to supposedly residential structures but there are residential uh things when we did um alta oxbow rivers edge uh the planning board did the site plan review and made the recommendation to the zoning board there are several of those kinds of things in the bylaw but if you if that if the thereafter sentence is intended only to refer back to these 20-day appeals that go to zoning you can change that by taking out the thereafter and just say anyone aggrieved by such a decision making it clear that you're referring back to the prior sentence because now it's just too too vague i wouldn't say such a decision because right now it's based on the 10 000 and 20 000 square foot stuff i think that's all he intends to apply that sentence to even if it comes from the zoning board because the zoning board will be doing no but it's only that sentence is only intended to apply to these 10 000 20 000 20 day appeals that's why i say you don't say such a decision you're referring to those ones just in the sentence before
also this will apply to school buildings municipal buildings anything the town builds as well so
there's a difference between site plan review and special permits and i know you know that because you've done research but special permits you have more we can impose more conditions the planning board can and the Zічar federal government can and other private defectors can not but special автомобiles you can impose more conditions the planning board can and the zoning board can but you don't hold two Office permits and one app adding one review for every type your County and Israeli way the zoning office you will want to make the Megins etc19ot websites need to come and see those are not even hours this is bleibenанияité the zoning policy is known in the color of the city you know for underwater debts you can't provide anything to thezaimian it was a only board can impose more conditions the site plan we can impose conditions on operations but we were generally following the bylaw and the kinds of appeals that people have wanted to take are things that we cannot under dover for example we cannot deal with those things we try and we try to help people come to the right decision but if there's an appeal and somebody says well i'm appealing because the traffic is bad that's that's nonsensical because they can't i mean they can appeal but you're just wasting everyone's time and slowing things down and costing the town money as well because when the lawsuits are filed they're generally filed against us as well and we have to defend so for me i understand what you're sort of trying to do but i don't think that what's on this paper does it you think there could be some type of bylaw amendment to permit a stay of a building permit was that what you were suggesting earlier robin if it if it's allowed and she's the one who would know that um you know for a stay for a period of time while the zoning board considers the appeal i think would be a better way to do that if it were for just a limited you know this gives if you gave the zoning board so many days to to deal with it and if not the building permit was back in business you might be able to do it because it's site plan and site plan is regulated by the municipality it's not a state function if it were a special permit i think you'd have a really hard time doing it i think my suggestion would be that
you pass over this if you pass over is the right thing i don't think that our my recommendation would not be favorable because i think it's got too many problems um with zoning bylaws if you if they're defeated they can't come back for two years unless the planning board brings them back um and i don't pass over i think is treated as um i think table i think it's treated as a loss send a continuing committee though it is yeah or send it to committee it's i think that that you can do or something like that miranda knows the right stuff to do um it'll be helpful to be part of this process and i think i think i highlighted i want to say i highlighted in the very beginning when we get to the meeting in the slept room was like nobody from town staff from planning was zoning or building look this over i could help you out to kind of craft this because my opinion my my suggestions are very similar to what you guys this is a mismatch of stuff this just does not work and i'm reading this and going i have to as a as a plan i have to i don't know how to deal with this and it's like it just it doesn't work it doesn't work it's it's feeling it's rushed it's feeling like it's you have you think there's an issue like we have to get something done now instead of just like going back like let's get this done correctly let's figure out what then what is you know what's what to get and figure this out so it'd be helpful to have staff that actually deal with building and planning and zoning be part of the discussion at this point so that we're all working together and we can actually catch things that like not from the legal piece point of view but the way of putting this together so it actually makes sense and it's read correctly because just popping things into zoning doesn't just always work it's kind of go back and make sure you know how's this complex section 603 just conflict so my biggest session is like isn't it kind of bring into community table it come back to the drawing board and figure out how to work together to make an article that actually works and it's actually enforceable i think it would be interesting too before we have it in paper and in front of the town to go to somebody at the ago and say look if we pat this pass this will this pass muster because if it isn't and then you mean because of the dover project yeah you know if if that's one of the things we want it to apply to and they say it can't apply to that then we need a better fix you need a different fix in in that example if they were agreed about bulk um i assume the zoning board of appeals would say you mean for a dover case yeah for a dover case would say well there's nothing to appeal um yeah we don't have uncertain of our zoning districts we have things about both but on other things we don't um so even though we're allowed to regulate bulk um we don't have set criteria um but what we've tried to do in those cases in the dover cases is try to get some articulation in the building some things move back a bit and it's worked reasonably well but you know sometimes there are projects that many people will not move at all and there's just we did our damnedest with all of the dover cases to try and take into account the things that the residents said that we had any way of making it happen can i um circle back a question on one of your earlier comments madam chair about zba in certain instances issuing site plan approval
and a person agreed wouldn't appeal a zba determination to the zba though right it would appeal to court yeah right which i which is what we want to have happen anyway but i thought you were saying would this apply to both cba and planning board it does apply to as a written court for zba there there's no internal whale and administrative court appeal if they issued the site plan approval that's it and your appeal route is court right okay that's helpful feedback um we had very little time to write a report um and we sort of started trying to do one to get ahead of this um and um i can hold the board and you can see where we are and you can hopefully make a decision of whether or not we want to go forward tonight well you can let us know like tomorrow um because we have you know virtually no time i did tell miranda that yeah we're going to endeavor to prepare a report yeah they wouldn't let me speak with my chair in the corner personally i wouldn't like to prepare a report for no reason yeah so how does the board feel about how this is currently in front of us has proposed decisions. Larry? I abstain. I don't fully comprehend the implications of what's being proposed. I would not be in favor of it as it's written. Yes, I have problems with the way it's written, although I agree with Larry that there are some understanding issues for me as well. Jesse? So I'm going to say I agree with it in principle, but I think it needs to apply on a much broader scale and have some actual timelines in it that apply to both sides of appealing. And as for me, I would not vote in favor of it because I just think it's too problematic as written now, and I think it needs a lot of work in conjunction with the planning board so that we can help to get what you want to get. So is that a no from Ira and Jesse? A no? Yes. I vote for it at the moment. Yeah, that's four. It sounded like four no's. I was not making sure because it was like. Yeah, I'm a no. Four no's and one abstain. Yep. So I don't think we're saying that . You just took the vote, but it's the report to town meeting that governs whether it can come back again. So if. You mean if you issue a report? We issue a report. We can take a vote. OK. Well, I'll do a real vote call vote. Sorry. That's fine. I just, I thought it was a shrug. No, I think you're right. I think we need to. It was. OK. Well, then we can keep it that way, and then maybe we should, for town meeting, put. How do we do this? Do an agenda and meet earlier to discuss where we are? I'm fine either way. I just wanted to clarify what we. He's not going to go into that. What we. Booklets. No, we agree on the report. Yeah. So if our board were to table it and you didn't issue a report. Yeah, I don't know that table is the right word. But right. But if Miranda tells you to do. Do what Miranda tells you to do. Yes. You can't vote on an article of zoning without a report from the planning board within, I think, it's 21 days. After the hearing. Yeah. and we're in that so if a report never issued then it can't get voted on right so you could just tell us but you're here and we don't want to not do something that you think you want us to do i just don't want to make the determination on my own yeah no i understand that i will um circle back with you tomorrow morning okay thank you okay thank you all for your time nice to see you doug thank you so that's the best way to handle this i think about wait to see what happens we're talking to the chair and the select board
and then potentially post a pre meeting town meeting and have like a little i don't know whether the town clubs said to post that as a way to be i guess
and that that will be determined what's going on because if they do do what maria says and pass over to the committee then you know we'll know from there so um what we just did was a straw poll and then we would actually vote at town meeting actually yeah i'm going to be a town meeting i know you're abstained but are you going to be a family i may not be okay this is on the second the last article so it'll be tuesday night yeah you hope it'll be tuesday night last day is the 30th no no last day after town meeting which is why if you still want to do the presentation i tell um so
tuesday uh yeah i can't be there yeah um so if a report did an issue that means it's not permitted before town meeting correct so the motion to pass over it isn't even relevant we're just going through the motions because the article is not properly before town meeting yes unless right unless we decided to do a report and again we don't want to not and we don't want to be blamed for not doing a report yeah which is why if we wanted to move forward right okay understand
you're fine yeah the beginning i'll be in touch tomorrow okay and i'll see you all hopefully next week did you go to the um tonight no no i wasn't able to care i was there right all right thank you thank you john i do not see that michael fair who's i thought he was gonna attend he did send us a request he is amazing i see the iphone work no this might be no this might be him it says iphone work otherwise we could continue with the agenda no i think i think this is him i think yeah hands raised i think it's probably him how are you michael are you the iphone work can you hear me guys okay sorry about that i was having a little trouble with the phone all right so we've had we have a decision that has the the temporary ceo running out next week prior to michael and michael fair the tension that it will run out and that we need to take some action or we'll have a lapse of use of this building starting next thursday so after a discussion michael has agreed to put in a request um and then he said follow me on today at 7.1 7 41 a.m um talks about the playboy condition of screening uh it's been completed he's waiting for the approval for dpw on that as well drawings um they're going back and forth from the storm final stormwater report
we see that at the end of business of to yesterday and is currently waiting for the dbw to review it will not make the may deadline and is asking for a extension until september 30th 2026 to resolve any issues that are outstanding when after reviewing the apple plan because the apple plan being in from where the town survey and the engineer looked did not match what was approved in september of 2023 so there's some work that needs to be done so this is not a quick easy fix you know done a month or two is going to be safety some time if they need to come back to the planning board for bigger improvements the agenda item that keeps on giving this is this will be the third extension i believe um michael i'd like to talk a little bit about what you need to do for the plan do you really think that you will be able to work through the plans and i'm assuming that you're going to have to come back to us for an amendment of your original plans i i'm not sure about an amendment in that and i don't have any control over what's going on at this point what we could control we have completed um i i'm at the mercy of the engineers and dpw at this point and it's not so much a case of not matching there is some things that don't match but it's more of a labeling and constructability questions on the as-built drawings that the engineer dpw wanted to see um on the as-built drawing so that's where that stands so just so i understand a little better i had understood i thought i understood that there was some construction that occurred that wasn't necessarily approved and that there was not stormwater control in the area of that construction uh well it's the calculations um for that piece of building and the concern was that it wasn't included in the calculate the original calculations and it was um all the areas that they were concerned with um the added we'll call them added but they were potential um ads on the original drawings those calculate those were all included in the calculations for the for the water um runoff so those are fine once again we i received those late yesterday afternoon i shipped them off to dpw so that they could um peruse them and hopefully give them their blessing okay um you stated that the screening was up around the utility area yes i've gone by and i can see everything behind those open slats what you had given us was a close a picture that showed uh covering the area we weren't interested in making it look uh those drawings were done those drawings were done by bill sterling that you have pictures too you said the picture the pictures were just representations of the type of construction that we had we were asked to match what was throughout the um the campus the uh downtown or the town center campus is what and that's what we did well they all have they all have screening on them but but they have dumpsters behind them um but that wasn't the intent in the intent of that was we were never asked to put the screening in so i touched base i touched base with bill and it wasn't his intent to have it there so our intent to have it there because the only reason we wanted the screening was so that you wouldn't be able to see the utility stuff and we gave you options we said you can use planting you can do whatever you want but we don't want to be able to see utilities and uh there's a picture attached to the decision that shows what's at the town center and um it has the screening behind it why would this journey be again that did he give a reason for that i don't think he he his intent wasn't to it would look like a big black wall but that's you know if i'll go back and have a conversation with him otherwise it's a shame that you spent money on just putting up what looks like sticks in front of it real stone is also online if you if he wants to talk how about plantings like arborvitae which we don't like in this case might work there isn't room for it oh there isn't a report
do you want to hear my comment yes please um as you know i've done many public buildings and every public building i've ever done security people particularly the police do not like to create hiding places on their land and so for security reasons i've always been told not to make a place where someone could um rob or even worse you know kidnap someone from along that parking lot edge so i am and i told this to mike as well i said this this is this is going to be a security problem if you put those black panels on the inside of those of those fences so i deliberately left that translucent space open in the area and that is where we are going to stay and if you want and i said this to mike as well i would recommend that you you could put a screen that has uh black mesh but still enough that you could see if someone is trying to hide behind there because it's actually a very dangerous thing to creating a hiding place on a parking lot it's a good point comments from the board um discussed that we wanted it screened and that was the discussion and the i think we all thought the agreement was that they were going to screen the utilities yeah the screen meaning you can't see it well to me a screen is not a wall right yeah meaning you it filters the view so you're not staring at electric right components more than just some vertical right yeah i wrote jesse i think bill's solution is is fine quite frankly yeah i don't have a problem with that either i just again attached to the decision there is a picture of the existing fence elevation with some kind of mesh or something that is uh blocking the view and that's what we had asked for i mean we don't care how you i don't think we necessarily care how you do it but putting it in a playpen doesn't really do much and i don't think it has to be you know a solid surface but some sort of a mesh something that gives just a little bit more disguise to what's behind it i think that was his suggestion was right no he won't sleep oh he said he would be willing to accept a mesh unless i misunderstood that right billy kind of a yes yes that's right translucent type of cover it'd be like a screen you can get a you can get all kinds of expanded metal screen sizes with a quarter inch half inch one inch yeah you would get a few samples and put them up there and you can decide which one screens it to your satisfaction not looking for you to spend a lot of money which we already have it's a little it's a little late for that well we said that was your decision what you were going to do we didn't tell you what to do you put the utilities there without permission to begin with and we were trying to work with you to accomplish what you wanted and what we thought was appropriate and i think you only need to screen you know that got to what i meant about clicking tiles and things and they didn't work out but on the andrew ave side therolling these theol and all of these fields we're only looking to work just you know what they are because i think if the problem is absolutely clear then we can invest into two of thosebots where you put these structures on and then we can do the extreme try and and the Route 20 side. You don't have to screen her on the back side. And you really don't even have to screen on the building side. You really can't see it from inside the building. What are you doing about, Robin? Yeah, maybe putting lattice up. Just do it in a limited area. So your security issue, you're not sacrificing security for the sake of a visual look. I mean, even just lattice is something like that on it. It's just better than bars. Okay, so you think an extension to September. We're now May, June, July, August, September. That's only five months.
Well, I'm hoping that they're at a point where they're on their third go-around. And I can't imagine there's much more left to discuss.
Robert, should we give them six months? I'd rather just give more time so we don't have to come back every time. That's how we go to May. I think last. Last time we went pretty long. I think you asked for the last time. Yeah. September 30th.
October 30th? Sure. What does the board feel about October 30th at six months? Sounds great. Yeah. To complete what, this fence? No. The final Asphalt plans. The final Asphalt plans, but also the fence should be done in that time frame as well. If not earlier. Do they need six months? We don't know what they need. We don't know what they need. He has to go back. He has no penalty for finishing early, right? Honestly, at this point, just make it longer so that you don't have to come back, you know, two weeks before it ends again, which is the case. So you ready for me to ask for a motion? Can I have a motion to grant the request for an extension of time on the council and aging community? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Now I will call for a motion. B. So I have the했습니다. So I have two votes. Okay. I vote. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Second. Second. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Next. Okay. quizzes. Great. Thank you. Thank you. particularly well from the roadways so moved second all in favor Jesse Newberry yes Larry Kiernan yes Annette um Robin Bergstead yes uh I wrote to you yes Annette Lewis yes um so Robert will prepare um a decision uh and if it's okay with the board and I have permission to work with Robert and sign the decision absolutely yes and we have a vote sorry I move that we allow Annette Lewis to work with Robert to finalize the decision for that second PBO3 second again okay uh Jesse Newberry yes Kiernan yes Robin Bergstead yes I reminded you yes Annette Lewis yes thank you everyone are you okay now um with what we have Mr. Fayette yes thank you very much okay thank you thank you guys did we get anything from uh Duncan yet um let me look I saw something but I'm not sure how I'm going to go back in time yeah you I figured if those guys were sitting on the line yeah she didn't have the she had the exact wastewater things that you're talking about there's a big email changing how much money they paid for the previous reasons because they paid in full but there's no like no gallons not the one's not the document that she has I have a questionnaire document but it's blank and then I have like a plan but it doesn't have like it's not like a plan of gallons it's just said plan of slay well if they paid money they had to pay per gallon they paid 26k 26 000 yeah and i don't know what they've been charging for the gallon and then they also had stuff before us if she said they paid to pay all this extra that's not to me it's not as worried it's not like you have a new you're opening a new restaurant and you have 100 seats and like we don't know or if it's 50 you know a patio in the back yeah but if if we have everything else we need from her can we close the hearing and make our approval condition on robert getting confirmation from the wastewater district yeah and we're receiving stuff enough receiving stuff that's what i would recommend yes and if she's subject to having sufficient gallonage and if not the specific gallon we're looking for a minimum capacity for the seating for the kitchen i don't know what that number is that's what people can tell us okay we need to close the public hearing and i'll say no okay um and i have a motion to close public hearing on pb 2602 289 boston post road dunkin donuts jimmy john site plan approval for outdoor dining i move that we close the public hearing on 2602 289 boston post road dunkin donuts jimmy john site plan approval for outdoor dining second you were beaten to it by ira good job ira catastrophe here um so um the hearing is closed and oh the first losing it i'm sorry i thought we didn't know okay we're going to vote on closing the hearing jesse newberg yes i reminded you yes robin borgstead yes larry kiernan yes annette lewis yes
um so on that one i just want to pull up my stuff again i need a two minute break uh you can do it right now so i think we said more um what the things were that we were going to put in there it was parking spaces some kind of condition about parking things or findings the trash can showing the trash cans right to add to the plan she's going to submit yeah hours hours as a condition which sure right and that there we'll talk about the fact that there is patio like and then waste water uh yeah and you have already talked to them about the no banners or advertising yeah that's something that's not right in my jurisdiction but yes okay well um the building commission slash zeo is going to give them 30 days okay should we put anything in the decision about no banners i would just leave it out i think they're trying to be fair because they didn't keep jersey mike it's the same treatment and then the hours of operation too we're going to do that and um okay so but we got we got to fix that with that we need to when he puts in next year he was saying it's a wild west of like wait for larry to come back to uh vote on that
to see what else we have to do can i take a break why don't we all take a break again uh we'll take a five minute recess
i think on doug's amendment if we all voted against it most of the town would vote for it i don't know i just i think people just don't care they're not even paying attention i don't mean yes everyone who lives near any recent large permit we approved they would rally the troops
we can do anything so um what we didn't do yet right robert was vote on uh duncan donut's jimmy john's we talked about what we were doing in the decision um so can i have a motion uh to approve the uh jimmy duncan donuts jimmy john's site plan for outdoor dining at 289 boston post road uh pb 2602 subject to receipt of the information uh on uh gallonage uh wastewater uh capacity so moved well and also that they show the trash cans on the plans yeah that they limit succeeding to four people upstairs and that their hours are 8 a.m to 9 p.m monday through saturday 8 a.m to 8 p.m on sundays and so moved okay thank you um yes i'll second sure okay just want to second it ira she bumped me out okay and um i'd like to add to that that um i'd be able to work that the chair be able to work with the town planner in finalizing the decision yes definitely okay so um jesse newberry you yes pause i remounted you yes larry kiernan yes robin borgstedt yes annette lewis yes okay yes that's great so um i think there are only two more things that we haven't done tonight and we're going to is preparing for the town meeting and um um we'll discuss a little bit about a report to town meeting six um which one would you like to do first fellows whichever okay well let's talk briefly about the uh report for a town meeting just talk through it because we're going to have to read it and we did more tonight i think in addition to that yeah so i had just drafted to get a start on the report so that we would have because we don't have a lot of time i just ran through the concerns that i voiced today like the fact that not all approvals or i think it's approvals have to be filed and they should fix that the fact that these are all the wrong sections they they've stuck them in in funny places where it's not going to make sense um that i think it's going to have to be filed and i think it's going to have to be in the comments that this really limits the right of appeal and doesn't expand it in a meaningful way um and that there are better solutions for what they're trying to do uh that this the proposed structure over 10 000 square feet and more than 20 square feet of this of uh the site being altered is something that's not everybody's going to know that about the site that's near them uh it will have to be something we put into our decisions so that people are aware of it also it doesn't work with the existing right doesn't it work with the existing file which has some different categories and this is between two categories um and then um let's see what else did i have in here
including we should include that it doesn't prevent the issuance of building permits
and even if there's a uh you know we could go to court right away or to the zva whatever that wouldn't stop it either no um um it's so i don't know the change in general read this because i wrote it and then brought a million other things um i think that with respect to certain types of projects especially doha projects this might not pass scrutiny with the attorney general's office um i really think that this is a it's a real narrowing of the right of appeal it's not a broadening of the right of appeal um yeah it gives somebody a little bit of a window before building permits but not in a meaningful way um it's a good way to say it too yeah um and those limitations there's also so chapter 40a sections 8 and 15 don't include this limitation in the right of appeal they have a very different right of appeal so it's another reason it might not pass the attorney general's office scrutiny let's see if you had an applicant that was that finished the site plan approval process and was ready to ask for building permits the next day you still might not have time to get an appeal and before the building permits issued but it also doesn't prevent the building permits from issuing um let's see i think it just you know in my view it just muddies everything without adding anything anything really meaningful so um for additional sections when we talked about the uh ten thousand and twenty thousand not working it doesn't work with six the section is 601.2.3 and it might be also 0.4 only really meaningful thing it gave provided was they could appeal sooner isn't that the net of the yes they can sooner but shorter yes
before their building permits issued but if it doesn't stop the building permits from issuing what is the purpose of that yeah
in in addition the way that it's structured in 610 um you cannot the way it's written um
you can only go i i think this is it you can only go to the zoo you can only go to the zoo yeah i think this is it you can only go to the zoo you can go to the zoo or still not due or still not due go to the zoning board of appeals um and you want to read my decision
yes only if there's a decision by the board of appeal now that's good
this is structured so that it only deals with planning board decisions and it talks about after a planning board decision then you can go to the planning board but if you have a zoning board decision on site plan and this section on appeals deals with the zoning board as well if the zoning board is issued a site plan decision um the way it's worded it doesn't look like you have a right of appeal because it has to the way it's written is you can only go after you've appealed a planning board decision am i making sense not entirely okay here any person agreed by decision of the planning board can take an appeal within 20 days of the date the site plan approval is filed with the template and then it says it's the thereafter thereafter anyone agreed so it doesn't say that anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board to take an appeal you'd have to have had an appeal from the planning board so it's written it doesn't necessarily cover that but that be fixed by taking out thereafter and just saying anyone yes by a decision right it just shows that they didn't right in drafting they did not think nothing through right also the town has considered this stuff four different times before and um what we've got now is similar to what we had in 1993 and there was a reason for doing that that way and they treated site plan different from special permit and they wanted to treat it differently
so does this proposal make the appellate process for special permits the same as still different isn't it site planner special does it treat them the same you're saying that when the town made this change to what we have right now yes it wanted site plan and special permit different right does this change bring them back to being the same
if you take out the thereafter uh
the same look at all the statutes sorry they're all here eight says an appeal to the permit granting authority as the zoning ordinance by law may provide may be taken by any person agreed by reason of his inability to obtain a permit or enforcement action from any administrative officer under the provisions of this chapter or by any person including an officer or board of city or town or other administrative official violation of division so the section eight is the one that currently we rely on and that is different from uh section 17. section 17 says a person agreed by the decision of the board of appeals or any special permit granting authority or by failure of the board of appeals to take final action concerning any appeal application or petition within the required time may appeal to the land court department the superior court department in which the land concerned is situated by bringing an action within 20 days after it's been filed so i think the answer is yes it would make the the same as the special permit judicial review okay but only because of that thereafter sentence if we take out the word thereafter it's and and make it any so that it says anyone aggrieved by a decision of the zoning board of appeals may appeal to a court of confidence jurisdiction in accordance with 40a 17 and that would give you the 20-day period 17 is the one with the highlighted stuff and right now 17 doesn't apply to site plan of the
special permit so this does not appeal to site plan approvals i think not but hold on no aid is what applies right now aid applies to site plan approvals okay but this would apply after the zba has issued a decision yes so any decision and technically this is just for special permits however we're allowed to write our bylaws so that we can glom on to the special permit
but if we take out thereafter anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board appeals can go under 17 that's true yes because anyone can go under 17. so then that kind of
it just makes it more clear that it's only zoning board decisions that go under 17 or a special permit because we're not talking about since they've given us 20 days in what they've written that's putting us into 17 as well apparently yeah but they still have the 8 and 15. so it's just very confusing well the 8 and 15 is for all other projects okay well it's not for the 20 the 10 000 and 20 000 projects i don't understand the 10 20 000 right that's a different question but this our special permits being treated the same as site plans i think if we change if they change that sentence in the future for this report it's in there and so it's as being a problem
and i haven't gotten my second wing yet i'm not getting a second this is my second wave i guess is there a large project people are particularly concerned about is that is there a rush i don't think so i don't think so but you never know what's coming you're not expecting anything wrong
potentially yeah
something a site a site plan kind of yes this wasn't flowing around that's not soon but by the end of the year and even if it even if it's past semester with the attorney general you're still talking four months before it could possibly be in effect oh it's not instantaneous when you sit it down right it's not much more active
so i'll wait for doug's call and then i'll let you know what he says because then how do we want to do that logistically yeah then we'd have to have you draft it and get it out to us i guess via robert and then we're going to meet before and then we'd have to meet if i'll post it's not too late is it to post for now give from monday to monday thursday of friday monday say goodbye and close them all close tomorrow and that would be okay for monday evening yeah because if you're friday no saturday no sunday and then monday okay so i would post it because we're going to need you tell me it starts at 6 30 so six o'clock 6 30 for six o'clock on monday everyone yeah can we do that are we meeting someplace ahead of time yes before town meeting starts we'll meet near the check-in okay area and then we'll find a place to stand but you said that's like 6 30. six six because the meeting starts at 6 30. okay yeah i can do it that's if we need it not to treat sony if they decide to
not take any action or yeah well we'll see but be ready to post i would post it and if we don't have to meet we don't have to meet oh right i would post it yeah we were thinking of having having to meet in order to do the duck and don't think about that at that time right so but i would leave in case something comes up so for monday at six yeah yeah i'll send it to you tomorrow morning okay thank you take a look at it are we still you are we still is protocol still i move you sir um does that change yeah unless you don't know i move you madam but i don't know if that's changed or not but no i'm just planning to say i'm moving madam well there's a whole thing that's already prepared for us to say oh yeah when we went to the meeting yeah
the motion things are yeah i have mine it's at home so that everybody yeah okay um that's what we have to do next is just go over um town meeting yeah i move you madam this is yours alva thank you um these are all online but i just printed them off so that we could talk about them um this is what you're suggesting i read because i were right that's the motion but i wouldn't you sort of have to if you have to talk to then you have to yes you do it so i need to read all of this yeah oh unless she says that yeah i don't think it's abbreviated procedure i think these are all regular so if they what article was that one 20 22 yeah none of ours are abbreviated procedure you have to read the whole thing before i give my before you give your spiel yeah holy mackerel that's a lot okay and then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you she says i recognize you sir and then you well first you get up there and you'll say i reminded you your street address i've done this but it's been a while okay address now and member of the planning board yeah and she'll say i recognize you sir and then you say i move you sir or madam and then she'll say would you like to talk about your yes yes and then you read that and then she'll ask if you want to speak to your emotion right that's what i meant and then you'll speak to your emotions do you know what you're going to say to your emotions i just tell them is it yep okay good people's or not um yeah we did this while ago didn't we well we didn't write our right i wrote i wrote my road up and sent it in but i did i i sent it by email it to jesse do you have a copy of do you know where the emotions did now yeah i mean you've just sent it to everybody in the planning board it's on the website and it's under the uh town meeting and there's a click into 2026 there's a list of all the motions for each article and here's this article on the floodplain thing is article 23 jesse okay and it's very short it's not out it's not exactly and you can look at the reports that we did which are in the back of the warrant so i'm sorry what i wrote little actually more than a blurb you want that you want me to send that into the total board email to everybody or not necessary it's up to you it's just we just want to make sure that you're ready to speak to your motion and answer questions and if you're not or there's something that you're not sure of that you can look to robert and he's going to we can get him to i think we are allowed to get you to answer a question aren't we yeah either they do a vote in the beginning or that the vote is every time oh for you you're non-resident yeah oh okay because there's a list of people but you're not one of them okay well you could whisper you can whisper in one of our ears yes no but they can easily they can easily also vote in i know but it takes too much time yeah i'm not sure why i'm not Melissa again if there's something someone asks we trade jobs they will honestly and i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know the answer i'm supposed to flag him down or is he going to be right there we're all going to be hopefully sitting i'll move up i'll move up face in the back because it was not well you have to sit where the non-residents have to see yeah i know exactly yeah yeah i usually move up to the zone and bta move to the front because it's those those bleachers on the far side it's yeah there's a list of people
so he has to then walk up to the mic to answer what i know he's evidently not you'll he'll whisper in one of our ears and we'll come up one of us will stand up okay and it's just too much work to have their vote in you have to vote in every time a non-resident to to talk i don't think i'm going to challenge any of my stuff they should really what they should do is have a huge list of all-town employees like department heads just take department heads and just take those just that less genetically i think the reason that it isn't is because there were people that they didn't want to hear from others didn't want to hear from them
i know but it could be way worse 47 years sorry okay all right so mine's listed in there as article 23 right it is okay uh yeah i'll be fine with this one larry if you if you have something different than what the proposer's comments are in here um just send it to me i don't see it in my email yet
or like the other way so if that means you can't be in the same state with me that gives me enough to work with though yeah the tricky thing about what you're working with is there are two separate districts one is the uh federal floodplain district and the other is this town's floodplain district right we're different and we're really amending this because of the federal floodplain district thing and we amended the maps last year but we're dealing with it again because they weren't final last year they weren't final until like july last year so we couldn't do it well they gave us numbers anyway um but um this state uh felt that we needed to uh incorporate more of the federal requirements into our bylaw there'll be a ton of interest in this i think you're just gonna read it they're gonna vote and that's the end of it keep our fema eligibility and boom yeah i think i think like that's the key yeah that's the key point this this keeps our fema eligibility and helps us qualify for the national flood insurance program please i'd vote for it sounds great yeah is there any big initiative that like is going to pull everybody from the town in like yes the budget that one in uh orchard lane and i'm sorry what what's your thing that's allowed uh and we don't know yet what edc is planning on uh our article 25 and i haven't been able to speak to town council i just got uh and i did alert the uh town moderator to the fact that there might be an amendment to our article and that i would give her information in advance um of what i knew right i think it's out of scope in that on the floor we may need to be consulting with town council at the time of an amendment depending on what she offers right hey um robin has the accessory dwelling unit by law and i'm going to ask her tomorrow um on the accessory dwelling in it to make sure that our understanding is correct with your time and is there any other questions or any other additional questions that you want to hear about um in that regard um absolutely um well thank you for on the two minutesいい we'll see you next week um of how many you can actually have and if we need to do anything to that one section where we say see article one or whatever yeah i i like the idea of leaving it saying that because i anticipate that somebody's going to realize they have to change the multi-family definition to allow so yeah i was talking to somebody who's friends with eric schulman and she said you need to talk to him because they have to fix that oh and i haven't talked to him but he looks like he works at state now right he yeah because he used to work he said he used to be trapped yeah now he's here they all move around i can't keep track of all around yeah um with the i'll do mine in a minute but if the select board goes ahead with the planning board of appeals thing uh they will make the motion uh but we would have to uh speak to the uh yeah report
wants to volunteer for that well if i've written the report it probably makes i don't want to but it makes the most sense for me to do it okay i was going to originally ask jesse to do it because larry was going to be doing floodplain okay that would be great if you could i hope we don't have to and in the um i haven't written it written it but i have the outline more um dimensional changes to the river's edge not representing oh my god uh this is the 20 20 west wait too sorry i can get that okay i can't believe i can just all the time i have all this paper and i put it together so that i'll be able to speak. I'm going to try, I want to get all the information out, but I'm going to try to keep it short because anybody who wants to oppose it has the same number of minutes as I use up to seven. So I'm going to try for three. And I'm not sure I'm going to put all these things in, but a good number of them, it would work for almost two years to come up with districts that would be unobtrusive to existing residential neighborhoods, would comply with state requirements, and would meet thresholds established in the state's complicated computer model, all to meet the state's desire to increase the number of housing units. We obtained two state grants totaling $49,320 for technical assistance in preparing documentation and compliance, including the required modeling. When the state did not take, what the state didn't do was take into account the number of units that were required for the housing units. And we obtained $49,320 for technical assistance in preparing documentation and compliance, including the required modeling. When the state did not take, what the state didn't do was take into account how likely it would be for a developer to want to undertake such developments. It all turns on the economic feasibility analysis of project costs, revenues, degree of risk, and estimated return. Those factors also determine whether the project can obtain financing at all. Several studies published after Wayland's multifamily zoning had been prepared look at the financial feasibility of such projects and made clear that additional costs involved in multi-family development, such as parking structures, land for parking areas, amenities, lot coverage, set limits, et cetera, increase the cost of development without necessarily equating with the ability to charge higher rents. Again, we'll have to shorten this. The Route 20 West Overland District adjacent to the Sudbury line is an underdeveloped 7.8 acre commercially zoned area consisting of four lots, each under separate ownership. Minimum lot size for this multifamily overlay district is two acres. So currently only two of the lots can take advantage of the overlay. That's a 3.1 acre lot near, at the rear of 534 Boston Post Road at the western edge of the district and a 2.14 acre lot, 526 Boston Post Road next to the Sudbury landfill. Uh, the 1.52 acre property, uh, has the Sudbury community pantry on it. It just, uh, it's, it's less than two acres. Uh, and there are two easements near the perimeters of that property that would include placement of the building. Uh, the overlay zone, it's also requires 20% maximum lot coverage. So some of these, I might say for answers to questions, um, section 198-2707.3.3 of the multifamily bylaw requires screening and buffering to create visual barriers, already requires that to create visual barriers. Public streets and PB regulations at 306-3 spell out performance standards, such as design elements to break up the length of building walls, setbacks to break up the apparent height certification from the fire department concerning adequate access for fire and service equipment around the entire building. So precluding buildings from being located too close to Route 20 and surface parking, uh, may not be within the minimum setback area. We want to allow town meeting to vote on this change, unlike the rivers edge case where town meeting did make a decision. And then it was overridden by the CBA that allowed more units and greater height than was established in the approved bylaw. If we truly want more multifamily housing, and this proposal is the way to get it, uh, it will provide more tax revenue to the town. The only thing would be whether you want to throw in something that says that, that making changes to this bylaw on the floor could imperil only, I think what I'm going to, that's, I'm hoping that I get something from town council in advance that says that you can't do it. Right. But it, but if they were to make certain changes, if it knocks out our whole MBTA plan that we, we risk losing state funding. So, you know, whatever Carolyn gives you on that, but if they were to make a change that knocks out. Our MBTA plan, there are real risks for the town. I think the implications of that though are pretty well known at this point, don't you? No. Nobody knows anything anymore. I think people who live in towns that didn't pass it and who are currently embroiled in litigation, they do, but Whelan passed it. We didn't have any issue with that. So, you know, I think some of the towns that fought against it have been aware. Okay. I'll figure out how to get it in. I don't want to, I don't want to invite it. Okay. No. No. And let Carolyn kind of offer the guidance there. Right. And I talked to Miranda about it and she said that I should get Carolyn to consider it in advance and let Miranda know. And then that would be easiest. Okay. If we can do it that way. Is there anything else that you think? No. Okay. Read it really fast. I want people to hear it. So I'll figure out how to do it. I don't read it fast. Okay. So is that, we're ready for town meeting? And Ira, you'll be there, right? This year? This last year? Do you want me to call you to make sure? Is there anything else that we need to do? Do you want to talk about the schedule or you just wanted to give it to us? Oh, that was just like an update. Okay. But just like, so you have it. Okay. Should you send it to Bill as well? Uh, If you need it. I'll send it to Bill. Okay. Thank you. Would you like a motion? I think I would just checking. Okay. Okay. The, um, for the next meeting we have, our minutes will be ready for the next meeting, right? Robert? Hopefully. Okay. So we have, um, okay. The oak tree management, the shared living thing is coming in. The town center people are coming in. And, um, so far that's the only thing that we have. Okay. So, um, I think that's the only thing that we have to do. This. Robert. Is that what we decided? What? The meeting for the 13th. We decided we were going to do that in person because the town center guys were coming in. It's in a slipper. Oh, it is. I thought it was. Okay. What's the. Well, cause some of the town center guys don't live around here. Some do. Yeah. Yeah. In case. No. Chicago. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we were hoping some of them would come in person. Yes. Thank you. Right. I mean, they show up. They slept with me on Monday night. So I would expect that they probably be in person. Yeah, I think so too. So we're going to be there, um, hopefully in person. At our next meeting, May 13th. Also, it helps with according to it. Cause it's the team recorded. So we do the meds. It's a lot easier. Do the meds after the fact. You hybrid. Um, agenda with, uh, center. They came into touch. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they came in to talk to the select board on Monday, and I was there to just be there for the Warren hearing, and then I talked to them on the way out. The message that they gave to the select board was, we do need to make changes. We want to make changes. We're willing to do them piecemeal, you know, in chunks. We just want to make progress. And one of the big concerns is signage at the entries. So I walked out to talk to them afterward and told them that I thought the board would be willing to work with them, and they're scheduled to come in and talk to us on the 13th, that for some things, we might be able to do it with just phase two site plan approval. Some things will require an amendment to the master special permit, and some things are going to require change to zoning. So we would try and work with them on that. And the signage, unfortunately, may be covered by the zoning. And that was the first thing they wanted to be working on. So they said, well, would it be helpful if when we came, we were more focused than we were with the select board? And I said, yeah, it would be really helpful. They had ideas about the town green. They were thinking of a playground. Water park? No. None of that stuff. No, they tried. It didn't work with the soil. It's so boggy over there. No, not necessarily. The agreements, the underlying agreement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can't work. They tried it. So they said that they weren't talking about equipment, but they were talking about sort of sculptured areas where you could sit and things like that. Because I said, you know, the playground would actually require an amendment. I think to the zoning. And they said, well, why? I said, well, because it was permitted as open space. I mean, it wasn't meant to have stuff on it like that. And they said, well, you know, this is sort of our idea, sort of landscaping. Tell us, you know, and maybe we can do it. Figure out how to do it. But they seemed certainly much easier to work with than the original town center. I've been on several. I've been on several. I've been on several calls regarding the round trip. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm really excited. You didn't even meet the third real partner. Christy is one of the person who works for, I forget his name, but there's a third partner in Chicago. But he's like super busy. But like, yeah, he's not here. He's not hands on. But he's more of like he's also one of the partners. But he's the visionary. Well, yeah. But Christy, I think she's, her job is to work on this, this, this technical stuff, which is really technical. All the agreements with all the loans and liens and stuff they have. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And it's just mind boggling. And I put it together for Terry Carlson years ago. And I asked if they wanted that. And they said, yes. So I sent them that. And I sent them the planning board's report to town meeting on the, when we passed the original zoning in 06, so that they could see what the intent was. And I'll get them to you too, guys, so that you can see what the intent was. I'll send it to Robert. He can put it. I think I did send it to you, Robert.
Is there anything else? Motion to adjourn. Okay. Seconded.
All in favor. Jesse Newberry. Yes. All in favor. No.
You already know that. You already know the miss. It's your number. Yes. Yes, you lose. Oh, my gosh. It's so funny. Just think you're getting off the board and everything's wonderful.
Then updates from the town planner and the chair and members preparation for annual town meeting. We're going to discuss our assignments for town meeting. I'm not aware of anything. That. Wasn't anticipated.
I mean, 48 hours in advance of the meeting and then we'll return.
Robert, are the people online?
Can you reach out to them and give them a link? Just in case they did. Catch them again.
The telephone number.
The only on number Harry's phone. I got like an office number. Well, would be nothing.
We're not early after 7 0 5.
Well, this is a first. It is. We've been stood up for design review. We've never been stood up. Oh, seriously. Nobody. Well, Robert's working on that. Why don't we see if we can look at the minutes?
Definitely.
For 1526. We haven't opened the public hearing yet either, so we don't have to recess it.
I thought they were fine. Are they in here? I have one. They're back before the schedule for next year.
You know, Jesse, how are you with the minutes? Reviewed and I thought they were good. I thought they read well. I have a motion to approve the minutes of 415 26 as presented. I move that we approve the minutes of 415 26 as present. I'll second. All in favor, Jesse Newberry. Yes. I remanded you. Yes. Robin Borgestedt. Yes. Larry Kiernan. Yes. Annette Lewis. Yes. That's 5-0. All in favor? Okay. So we've done that. I can't believe these people aren't here.
Do you think? I wonder if they're at town hall? I don't know. Is there somebody that we can ask to look for them? Is there anyone over there you can call? That's my brother. That's my brother. In the meantime, I think they would have gotten there and then realized they were in the wrong place by now. Well, he was out of the building and they said, get it. Jesse, you probably didn't hear, but the person you were sort of dealing with on the solar stuff is no longer with the town. Oh, wow. Okay. People just say, move down. Okay. So I'm still waiting to have a meeting with... Oh, wow. The town manager and at least Robert to just explain to him what has to happen under the new statute so that we can get all of the boards functioning together and the staff and he'll have to decide who's going to hold out on it. Okay. That's good. Everybody's checking. I asked them to just check to see if anybody's there for the public hearing at the town hall, but... I feel like they want to do it. I feel like they want to do it. They would have dropped an email or something. Hold on. So how do you update the website? Public hearing. So that the thing in the newspaper wasn't right either now? Yep. They modified it. Yeah. I noticed it pretty quickly. They're on their way. I went and gave them the Zoom information. It said they're on their way? Well, she's asking questions. Nicole, your representative. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. For town meeting, let's just go on to that. Larry, you're going to be presenting the floodplain thing. I will not. I have the wording for someone to present, but for reasons I don't want to go into, I will not be presenting. Okay. Though I have the – I wrote a speech. Okay. teacher, whatever, to introduce it. Okay.
That you would give to the person who. Yeah. Yeah. I've got it outlined. Jesse, how do you feel about picking up the floodplain thing since you don't have your solar thing anymore? I have nothing better to do, Annette. Yeah, right. I have nothing better to do either. You'll get to decide in a short time whether you want to do that or something else. Because we have another thing coming up. Yeah, I'll take that one on. That's fine. Larry. I will send you this wording right now. Awesome. Okay. And we can discuss. It's really not that complicated. Sounds good. Yeah, I'm happy to do that for you. And I'll be happy to talk you through what we did in the amendments should you wish to do that. Okay. Nathan, I'll pick up. Okay. Wait a minute. You ready for public hearing? Is it here? She's in a morning to panel. Oh, okay.
And can you just, before I open the hearing, just want to make sure I know who you are. Hi, my name is Nicole Sullivan. And you're here for the. I am here for the Duncan Jimmy John's outdoor seating. Okay. I'm going to call the public hearing. Order.
715. 715. This is PB 2602 public hearing on 289 Boston Post Road. Duncan Donuts, Jimmy John's site plan approval for outdoor dining for section 198 1102.1.1.1. And who is here for the applicant and state your name? Your address. And your position with the company. My name is Nicole Sullivan. The my address is 72 Junction Square Drive. Concord, Mass. 01742. And I handle all of our construction and remodels for the patient network. For the. The patient network. Is that what you said? Yes. P E C E. P E S C E. Thank you. Thank you. So you're the last. That's the last name of the. I know. I never knew that's how you pronounced it. Thank you.
So a little bit of background. Don't get donors applied for special primary, the CBA and then got approval for the use and also the science. And at the time the decision, they weren't ready to apply for the site plan, but then inside the decision in the decision for the CBA, there was a conditions that's free for you put out those seeing you must go to play. But for so. Outward outdoor seating site plan. And that's where we are today. They're asking for approval. The building has been built. The patio is there. They just are asking for approval with the table and seats on the patio and these ones. And so I think the board and me have some questions, technical questions to figure out before any kind of approval is given. Kate, do you want to make your presentation? So we're proposing 16 seats outside. I thought it was 14 seats outside. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. 14.
You are right. Okay. Sorry about that. Robert, you have all the specs on the furniture. Were there any questions on anything?
Yeah. There are a bunch of questions. Oh, okay. Yeah. So you created a pad of concrete and around it you put a fence. And then you put in three tables. If you could just go through that, that would be helpful and so that everyone hears it. Sure. So in an effort to utilize the existing area that was there with the patio, it was the old drive-through from the bank. We decided to put some outdoor seating. We thought it would be really well received by customers. We've got a ton of people really excited about it. Just from the fact that we've got a lot of people. So we're proposing to put three four-top seating and one three-top. No, three, I think, no. Oh, did I get it back? Sorry. I'm sorry. I have some technical difficulties getting on, so I don't have my computer. Oh, sorry. You're doing three tables with four seats and then one table with two seats. Okay. Yes. I don't have the plan. I don't have the plan in front of me because I'm not on my computer.
In looking at the plan, there were no dimensions for the tables and chairs. And it looks like when the chairs are pushed out to get seated, that they're going to hit each other. Did you factor that in?
Yes, we did. We actually have all the seating already, even though we're not allowed to have it out. And we've put it out to make sure that it fits. It's all upstairs in our attic.
So when you put this, if you're sitting on either end of the tables facing the middle table and the chairs out from the closest one in the middle table to the closest one in the end table, and they're heading toward the door. I'm happy to, you know, if anybody wants to come by, if we want to demonstrate or I can mark it out with some tape. Just asking a bunch of questions to others to ask first. I saw it looked very well reinforced because that was the old drive-thru. I thought it was drive-thru window. At first. And then I walked up and saw there's no way to get a car in there. So it looked covered and a good use of that drive-thru. So how many employees do you have in the building at any one time? The most that are on shift at one time is five.
Which would then require five spaces. Yes. And one space for every four seats. And you have 18. Well, that's five at the most, but yes. And I think I could get you an exact number, but some of them don't drive. So I don't have, I can tell you at any time there's not five employees parked there, even if there are five working. That's for today. I'm just going by the bylaw. So I'll tell you what I see and you tell me how to fix it. Okay. Good. The bylaw requires one space for each employee. And each three, three spaces, one space for three employees. Are you sure? Because I thought I saw one space for each employee. Let me look it up. It's 506, 1.3 or restaurant, tea rooms, lunch counters, or other facilities, eating or drinking one parking space for each three plus one every four seats. Okay. So I had, if it's three, then yes, that's actually two parking spaces for employees, plus eight parking spaces for the seats. So you have a net of 10. I'm sorry. So it's one space for each three employees. If you have five, then we're wrapped in two. So we have two spaces. Yep. Right. And then there's 18 seats inside, 14 seats outside, which is 32. It's one for each four seats. So 32 divided by four. One is eight. Right. So you have 10 parking spaces is what's required based on the zoning.
Okay. And it looks like your specs show 11 spaces.
And I got that not from what you submitted to us, but from what was at the zoning board. Is that correct or not? That's correct. Okay. And one of them is handicapped accessible. And based on the code, you'll need one. Okay. They're good. Yeah. I just checked the code. Great. Thank you. Yep. On the second floor, there's a 12-seat conference area. What is that used for? Well, at the moment, there is no seating up there except for our patio seating. Down the road, we plan to use this as a training center so that we can train employees. As it is right now, we have to send our Jimmy John's employees to other franchisees' stores to train them. So the plan was to use this as our training store. But if there is going to be conference room seating up there, it's going to be one of the conference tables that you can kind of take apart, similar to what you guys are using right now. It's not going to be an all-the-time thing. Right. But you have 11 spaces. You need 10, except that if you've got a 12-seat conference center going on at the same time as the other things. You're short some spaces. How often would that be, Nicole? How often would they overlap?
Because it's not something that we do yet. I don't want to give you an inaccurate answer. If I had to guess, I would say it would be maybe once every three months for two days.
The seating requirement is not for the retail use. It's for any seats in the building. Wow. It's applied for as a restaurant, so I don't know. Let's go back, Robert, and look at the... I mean, if it's going to be a deal-breaker, I'm happy to not have seating upstairs. We don't want to make you not do it. We want you to be able to use the facility the way you'd like to use it. I just want to make sure that if we're giving you leeway, that we say we're giving you leeway. And if we're not giving you leeway, then we're not. Do you know what I mean? I just wanted in the... Of course. The closest would be... The educational training center, one parking space for each employee, plus one space for each structure, plus one parking space for each 1.5 student based on this allowed... That's a lot of space. Yeah, that's a real training center. That's not what... Right. When you say training, that's not what it is. There's nothing else that one could point to?
Nothing else in these things? I mean... So is it the case that your parking is on the side near where... Where the outdoor seating is, and then right in front of the main entrance? Is that it? Do you have more? That's correct. We have the same parking footprint that the bank had previously. Okay. Thank you. I don't think that's that big of an issue. It's not like they're going to be doing... Like, this is the only place where they're going to be doing training all the time. It just might send them a little tighter. That's the question for the board to decide. If it's right, if it's happening all the time, maybe a week or something, or like two or three times a week, that's a different story than, you know, once every little bit, you know, once every three months. They're not required to leave the... What used to be the drive-thru lane open, are they? There's no... It's not like a fire... I think it is. Is it?
The drive-thru lane is open so that you can get to your storage facility in the back, isn't it?
Yes. Well, there's no... There's no outside access to the walk-in cooler, which is what I believe you're referencing. We access that from inside the store. Okay. And what do you use that driveway for? Well, the only person that's really using it at the moment is my trash company when they come pick up the trash. I mean, you do have some people that are driving around just, I would imagine, because they think it's a drive-thru.
And they're very disappointed when it's not. You know, I am saying cars once in a while will go through there, but really the only function that we need that for is for the trash. That's the only way the public can get around the building. Did the fire department make any comments on that? Did they want to keep that open? They didn't tell me anything one way or the other. I would think that they would because on the other side is parking and they would need to get in to get access to that side of the building. Yeah. But if it's not, then they could call those spaces available for when they have a conference. When they're doing training, they could have just employees. They could mark it as like employee parking. Because if everybody who came for training parked there, they all come together and they all leave together. That is typically the case, yes. A lot of our employees carpool. So if the fire department doesn't require that access. It's such a small building. I assume they. Come from the front, but well, the cooking is in the rear, so they would probably go go into the cooking is mostly on the side. That's the kitchen there. That's just where they're serving stuff from. This is the kitchen over here. Sorry.
Park here.
Yeah, it's a small I don't know. So I guess if we wanted to know the extra space. So parking, we could have them resolve this with the fire department, whether they require that access or not.
These are just questions. Don't get anxious. Okay. So the winter, are you going to plan on keeping it out? Are you going to take it in? We're going to take it in. It's just going to be seasonal. So you're looking at like, oh, like once it gets, I guess she gets warm outside and then to like October, November, when is that? She says, I'm sure it's not dropping. Yeah, I think. The end of November is typically when we take all of our seating in that seasonal and that's a fair guess.
Do you have I didn't notice any outdoor refuse containers. We do plan. I isn't a playboy. I drove by today and saw them on the threats. It's too bad. Where are they located? They're located right here. And he is to them. I saw two trash cans when I drove by today. I'm sorry, I can't put that up on the screen there. They're on the pad. And the reasoning behind that is I know sometimes you guys may like them by the front entrance. What we see happen a lot is people when you have a trash can by the front entrance of any business, they will empty their week's worth of McDonald's and Taco Bell and trash is one of the biggest expenses that we have. So if we don't need one by the front door, I'd love to not do one just to not start that habit. So on here and here, most likely this won't be moved because there's going to be two seats right there. But right now there's two trash cans. Yeah, we're not dealing with the front door because all we're looking at is outdoor seating. So when I got that and they left one here, that's probably good for me. Robert, the one that you made the second one that you may have seen would be. May have been like the porter trash can. We only have one on the pad. That's a permanent. They may have been taking the garbage out when you drove by. Okay.
So.
What about washing the seats? Is someone going to like wash them or like scrub them down? If so, how often? What do you plan upon putting that water? It's going to wash it out. They're pretty thick plastic PVC. I don't I have these chairs and there's not a time. We don't need to wash them. They get they get wiped down every so often. So I don't I don't think we're going to need to worry about pressure washing them or anything. What about when people are eating out there and food gets on the ground? Clean it up. So a big part of the cleaning standard in our store is our manager or all star does a travel path several times throughout the day. And part of that is picking up trash and. Right. So if you know that if you need to wash down the floor, the concrete panel or whatever pad, where does the water go from that?
They would probably take can't we have a we have a thing that's almost like a Swiffer and they would probably just push it off the pad.
I mean, if they're if they're wiping something down, it's going to be, you know, a little bucket at most. If there's an accident or a spill out there, you don't have to clean it like you do the inside. Well, the inside, they're mopping all throughout the day. I think you're asking, are you not like a spray? Yeah. Spray the ground. The reason I was asking the question is there isn't any water. It didn't appear to be any water catchment. And if you're going to have excess water, where is it going to go?
I don't. I don't know that we would have any excess water from cleaning.
Well, if it was so dirty that you dumped a bucket of water on it to rinse it, that water is going to go off and run off of your your head. It's going to go on to the on to the paving.
When you mop your floor, you pick it up with the mop. Yes. And we also have floor drains for the back. Well, this is concrete. Yeah, it's concrete. And if you're throwing stuff. I think what they're asking is, will the water pool? At all, when you clean it, when you clean the concrete concrete area now, if anything, it's going to there's a little bit of a dip, so it would go down because there is, you know, remember, there is a little bit of an incline there for your wastewater capacity. What do you have for wastewater capacity?
What are you asking? What size? I'm assuming that you're in the wastewater management district commission. You don't have a septic system there? That's correct. So you have an allocation of gallons. Oh, I know we bought extra. I can tell you that. I don't have it in front of me, but I know we bought extra whenever it became available almost four years ago. I think what we'd like or what I'd like to know anyway is what your capacity is that you were given. And it's my understanding. That for a restaurant for each seat, you need 15 gallons per seat, and then there's a number of gallons that you need for the kitchen. So I think we even bought extra. I can certainly get you that number. I apologize. I don't have my laptop, but I we did buy extra. I think I could pull up the email with Sarah, but then I don't know how I'd get this back on. Are there issues with grease traps or any of that stuff? I'm assuming that they have. I'm assuming that the Wastewater Management District Commission would make them have grease traps. We do have a grease trap. It's cleaned quarterly.
On the plans that you gave us, they didn't show any kind of lighting on the patio. I'm assuming you're going to use it at night. That's correct. In the plans that were at the ZBA, it looked like there were 12 recess lights. That's correct. That's what's there. Yep. LED. Okay. And they would shine down, just down? Correct. You would use those in the evening hours? That's correct. Okay.
Do you ever get any comments from the Board of Health? You send it out to everybody. Yep. I don't know. No problem. That's great. Okay. What are your hours of operation? We are open 5 to 9, Monday through Saturday, and 5 to 8 on Sundays.
5 a.m. to 9 p.m. and 5 to 8 on Sunday. Correct. First part is Dunkin' Donuts opens, then Jimmy John will open a little later. So it will be a different kind of crowd coming in.
And so because you're not going to be leaving the patio open in cool weather, you're not going to have to do anything with auxiliary heating outside? That's correct. Does anybody else have any other questions? Did you ask for questions? Yes. I just wondered if there was a line to wait to get outside. Do you anticipate that happening? And if so, where would those people go?
A line of people waiting, you mean? Waiting to go out of the patio areas. Because the seating is full? Yeah, seating is full. I mean, I would love for that to be the case. That would be great.
But, you know, we want to maybe, if you guys are wanting us to put some limits on, you know, 30-minute limit, I don't want to have to do that. But if it's something we need to talk about, I'm open to. I assume it's just first come, first serve. Yeah, it's going to be first come, first serve. The only way I see that happening is you dump, like, 30 little middle school kids in that area. Because they would love to sit there and goof off and eat the sandwiches. But... Or they would just eat and they'd probably just leave, I guess. Or they'd just go and leave and go take their car and walk away. Like, nobody's going to sit there and wait. They're going to just go offsite. When the kids come, I've noticed, you know, because I've obviously been there a lot in the last three weeks, they're there 20, 25 minutes, and then they move on to the next place.
When do we make this decision? By the 23rd?
We have a meeting on the 13th. We do. And then what's going on after that? Yeah, I did. I did. You want to have one meeting between us before the deadline? One meeting between us? Okay. Yeah. I'd like to take a straw poll of the board and where they are. And I'd like to, if we can, get answers. And we'll state them again to the few questions that we asked so that we can condition them in the site plan. How does everybody feel about granting a site plan approval for the outdoor seating? I'm good. I would like some answer about the road and whether that can be designated for parking for these training events so that we can put that in there. Or if we can't put it in there, we would know.
But otherwise, I'm okay with it. Okay. I'm fine. Yes. And I am too. The things that I would like to be able, if you can get them to us relatively quickly, our next meeting is on May the 13th, and we'd like to have it in advance, several days in advance. I will send it to Robert as soon as I hang up the phone. Okay. Oh, okay. Well, there were several questions. If you have it now. Oh, you've got it. You've got it, but you can't access it. Yeah. If you're going to ask me about the water, I can answer that as soon as I hang up. Okay. So for parking spaces, let me just calculate again. So it would be 11 and you have 10, and that's one. And then. No, it's the other way around. They need 10 and they have 11 for just the restaurant. No, I know. I'm just, yep. And I'm just, and then for the conference area, they would need three, right? Four seats. If we're using the restaurant calculation. Yeah. I also don't see, I don't know how many seats it has on that upstairs table. No. The trainings are usually groups of four people at the most. And I think that table upstairs was just kind of a placeholder that my architect put on there. It's annoying. For a time. Then you're looking at probably like one parking space, but then you, then you have a little bit. Floating down. I think that, I think this is a way to work it out. If you do, you have to kind of like in the decision, have to like explain it a little bit. In the plan, it had 12 seats. If you're only going to do. Oh yeah. I'm not going to have 12 people training at that one time ever. Okay. So. You know, the, these combos. stores are very new for for the brand and for everybody and my architect this was the first one she did and she like i said it's it's a placeholder and knowing what i know you know this is our third combo we're never going to have more than four people training at the same time okay so um 10 11 so you would have enough spaces yeah because you have four four employees exactly okay and you know i certainly don't want to say anything that is going to get me in trouble but we actually the area you're talking about we had on the side of the building we have it filled in with gravel and we have been using it as employee parking as needed just so that we have every space available for the people that are coming in and enjoying our business so we're we're happy to park there on the side if everybody else is okay with that but if you have enough spaces now if you're only doing a conference area for four then you'd have enough spaces already is that okay is that a problem if we limit it to four no that's i'm fine and i'm happy to if you want me to revise that plan that's in front of you i'm happy to do that okay on the plan can you add the trash can absolutely and when you send that in can you also write something that says that the conference area on the second floor uh is a four-seat conference area or something like that so that we just have it for the record sure would you like me to also put how often we plan to use it just to cover all the bases that would be wonderful okay um and then uh real water capacity and your hours and generally we do put the hours in the site plan document so i'm assuming that's okay with you yeah that's fine so um i think that we might actually be able to vote now um because it sounds like everything will be coming in okay um can i have a motion to approve kids close public hearing us close it for us and then do it okay thank um can i have a motion to close the well i don't want to close the public hearing boring just then just give me and just and just because i want her to send in that information then just have then just thank you um can i have a motion to approve the site plan application for uh 26 it's a marriage attachment request right i just i don't want to be interested in like um as a site plan application for uh 26 and then the favored by the city council 합 we need to Mississippi city snuck절 602-829-289 Boston Post Road for Dunkin' Donuts Jimmy John's site plan approval for outdoor dining with the proviso that the decision list the number of parking spaces available that matches the number of parking spaces in the building and the conference area that the plan show the trash receptacle on the patio that the hours are five to nine Monday to Saturday five to eight Sunday and that we receive information on the wastewater capacity that is allocated to that facility. So moved. Second. Second. All in favor. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Great. So if you can send that stuff to Robert that would be terrific. And if you have it like right now, when you get off and you can send it to him, I can leave the hearing open until we get that. And then I can close the hearing. Okay. Yeah. Just give me a minute to find it. And if I, if it's something I need to access on my computer, I'll let him know either way. So I don't hold you back. Terrific. Okay. Cool question. I enjoyed coffee there the other day. Thank you. I walked from my house right there. I enjoy good Dunkin's. I avoided the donuts this time. How's it going? How's it going so far? Going great. We're very happy. The support from the town has been very nice and everybody seems to be really pleased that comes in. So we're very happy. Yeah. Great. Great to hear. Thanks. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. I will get into my email right now. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We're right now. Are we ready? Yes. Yeah. We're ready. Okay. Thank you. We'll continue this. Take a slight recess from this hearing to move on to another hearing, and then we'll come back and close this hearing once we receive the materials from the applicant. Okay. It is 7.9. It's 7.9 and this is a public. We're moving on to, we have temporarily rescheduled. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. board site plan decisions um and i'm going it's um being proposed by the select board um not the planning board so i am going to allow uh the representative from the select board to uh explain the bylaw to uh us and the public uh and then uh we'll have comments from the public and from the board does the microphone pick up here i have yes i think supposedly good evening everyone good evening member of the select board ray birch lane and i am here on behalf of be found in the warrant as article 40 entitled men town code planning board deals um and i'll give um and i'll give just a little bit of background information about the article um and discussions that our board has had a couple of times as well as several discussions that i've had with town council they worked on the language for us um so the catalyst for the introduction of this article occurred over the course of the past year as the town worked through three large development projects all of which happened to be under the dover amendment um the conversation with the butters from each of those projects as well as town council we began to examine timing for when appeals are permitted um after site plan review by this board so the current bylaw that governs those appeals can be found in section 198 604 specifically 604.9.1 which requires the denial or issuance of any required building permit by the building commissioner before a site plan decision of the planning board may be appealed
so in conversations with town council site plan review is an interesting entity unto itself i've been doing a bit of a deep dive with ms murray and she pointed to me to some seminal case law as well as some recent land court case law and it turns out that site plan review is isn't anywhere within the framework of chapter 48 zoning act it's a creature of municipalities bylaws pursuant to the home rule laws so in that sense we would be obviously amending a town bylaw here as spelled out in the warrant and it's broken into these two short sections under little a and little b and little a is inserting a new paragraph in section 198 607 entitled 198 607.2 decisions and then 607.2.1 is essentially essentially the triggering action in order for a party to be able to file an appeal and that triggering action is the filing of the site plan determination with the office of the town clerk at that point the clock for the appeal would begin to run and it would be a 20-day period where by which and a grief party may file an appeal the second part of that spells out essentially a threshold for larger projects projects uh of which we hope that this would apply to um although these discussions fomented because of the dover amendment projects we would not want this to be specifically dover amendment projects only but we were just trying to determine a threshold for what we deem larger projects in town and in conversations with town council with the building commissioner and others we came up with the two numbers contained in that language there under 610.1 um appeals which is 10 000 square feet uh alteration to a structure or alteration of more than 20 000 square feet of a site and then all other projects below that threshold would be um mandated by the current law that the same appeal process that is issuance or denial of a building permit um i would we were trying we were discussing what some examples of some of these larger projects would be that would not be dover amendment projects um had a little brainstorming discussion and items such as potentially a large grocery store or garden store perhaps even a solar farm would be something that would fit under this language as well um and then we also discussed because we had an initial meeting with you folks before the select board several weeks ago um potentially not having a threshold at all um the 10 000 and 20 000 square feet but we did determine as a board that we did want this to just apply to the large so-called larger projects um so that that's why we created that um and i conclude by saying the the idea behind this is in one way or another that we're not going to be able to do that without the support of the board
um we recognize that there could be some significant delay to the appeal process as of now but um that in part, that was just an option that we could give to the board. except a plan for a larger project to be issued in the near future um i think that's what i'm trying to say um i think that's what i'm trying to say right now um but i think that's the best thing that i could possibly say um and i think um what i delays between a site plan approval and when a building permit issues, we may in fact encounter that with the two projects that were recently approved, the other two Dover Amendment projects being the Carroll School and the Coptic Church. It may be months or the better part of a year before a building permit issues, at which point those aggrieved abutters may then be filing their appeal. Recognizing this won't apply to those two because this would need town meeting approval next week, but we were just trying to think ahead of what made sense for those for those larger projects where an appeal would be filed of the site plan determination by this board. What is the timing that made the most sense? And after conversations with town council, this is the language we can use. I'm happy to answer questions. Is there anybody on the line?
I'm going to hand it over. Okay. Let's hear from that person.
Can you hear me? Yes, please state your name and address. Absolutely. Luke Shardlow, 22 Shaw Drive. Thank you. So I would just like to comment in support of this motion. I was one of the aggrieved abutters. I was one of the parties involved in the Veritas Christian Academy approval and myself and quite a number of the neighborhood went through this process whereby the board approved the plan and we had to wait until constructions basically started to pursue any appeal. Just speaking personally, I mean, this process, massively increased the, the stress levels and it also increases the risk and exposure for all parties. Right. So I think if you talk to the VCA representative that we've been communicating with, Joseph, over the last months, you know, I'm, I would believe he would also state that waiting until construction starts didn't really serve them either. So. I think, you know, from our experience, the increased risk exposure for all parties, increased stress levels involved, you know, the fact that you can't appeal until things are already happening, it just makes no sense. So, you know, I'll pause there. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. I'm going to let you want to start, Robert? Sure. So I felt there were quite a few issues here. First of all, the way that it's written, this only requires the filing of the planning board decision if it's approved with conditions or denied. So in a case that we approve with no conditions, can't be appealed. So that's a bit of a, I don't know if it's a. law, but if it's what you intended, but it does leave out that one circumstance and granted, many of these projects are approved with conditions. If one wasn't, it wouldn't get filed with the town clerk. So that seemed like an issue. Has that occurred in your folks' time on the board where you've issued a determination with no conditions? Yeah. There have been some. Yeah? Mm-hmm. A large project. And the zoning board does as well. I think that the Islamic Center, their funeral building, I don't know that we had conditions on that. It was a condition, but it was a very small condition. It was still as conditions. But that's not over 10,000 square feet. That's problematic to begin with. Right. Yeah. If you look at the way that the bylaw, I'll let you talk in a minute, but if you look at the way the bylaw is set up to even get under site plan approval, you have to fit into certain size brackets, and then you have to have certain amount of parking and stuff. So I'm having difficulty understanding the 20,000 and 10,000 and how it relates to what's already in the bylaw at 601.2.3 and thereafter. Okay. So you have to look at 601.2.3 and 601.2.4. Yeah, I'm looking at how it creates the different sets of thresholds and talks about the SBRA. And so I was having a hard time, as somebody would have to administer this, trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Mm-hmm. I actually asked town council to take a look at that as well, but didn't have a chance to follow up because you brought this issue up with me directly. So I did flag this. For purposes of the article language, we just wanted to have a single threshold, but I understand the concern. What is the interplay with 601.2.3? I followed you, and I need to go down on that. Yeah, and keep going. And with regard to that, the 10,000 square feet or the 20,000 square feet, it's like, if I'm in a butter, I might not know that. I might not know that it reaches that threshold. Maybe it's. Maybe it's just over. Maybe it's just under.
And so, and it's something that, you know, we would obviously have to make a note of in our decision if they're over the threshold or under the threshold. So one more thing to add in, but it, then there was effect. So in the, I noted that in the finance committee's comments, they said that this is to allow residents to do this. But this applies to any. Any person in any person. So it's even the applicant. Yeah. Has this very short deadline. So, and granted they've been involved. They know they got denied or whatever. So, and do they now, if the applicant got approved, but then there's something up with how the building permit gets, gets issued. If they're not happy with that, can they no longer appeal? Because now they're, they're outside of that 20 day window. Can they not appeal the issuance of a building? A building permit that they're not happy with or something. So there were a couple of issues with that part of it.
And then let's see. I have some. Don't need to go through.
When we, I think when we had spoken before, there was some question as to whether this was intended to apply to Dover only. And so I guess under now it's not going to apply to Dover only. But I worry that because it does apply to Dover. If. The attorney general's office is going to say this can't apply to Dover. They're going to find that an illegal infringement on a Dover application. I don't know. That's not for me to say. And you never know what the attorney general's office is going to do. A wild card.
On that subject, do other towns have this kind of provision? I asked that very question to town council and she. She. Said that there are other towns are all over the map. As this case law says, because it's completely up to municipal bylaw. But she did say that, yes, there were a couple of other examples, not at this specific language, but that allows appeal after site plan determinations made by the planning board without having to wait for a building.
So I also take issue with where you've added things into the existing framework. I think you've said the whole, to add or subtract after site plan's in place. I take issue with where your laws are. And I also think that that would be a little bit of a question. And I think it goes back to what wyatt was saying, too. That the county will be developing a,"What is a building?" Here's what they're doing. There's a building. They're not using the same building as the town hall. We have to do this. And it's the same thing with the town hall. We have to have each building meet colors. We have to have the same building. We have to have the same building, but we're going to do it. So that's a large part of the reason why I'm seeking. And then I'm just not interested in this. I see a comment from a. My name. I'm Rob. for that filing i thought that is something that should be in here because that adds predictability whether you are a resident or not a resident we have 60 days to make a decision and so we have to file it before that 60 days is up and normally what what happens is we wind up having to get extensions of time and then we file it right at that time and is that when we file it is that with the town clerk because yeah we do that already right and the bylaw already requires us to file notice with the town clerk and that section is still in there you didn't take that out so
used to seeing it where it is it's at um 604.4 file notice of said decision with the town clerk
it says notice of decision which doesn't necessarily mean decision uh but it says a copy of set notice and the decision within 60 calendar days it does say on the decision yeah so i wasn't sure why you were putting a new section in okay thank you so what else you're up you know it's like we're at work um i think that this is such a if we're trying to improve the appellate rights of our residents i see this as more of a contraction of their rights because the the city looks very far ahead there's a lot less trust and a lot less
on this um it's permissible. But I would say that, you know, if somebody appeals within a certain number of days of a building permit issuing, then perhaps the building permit gets stayed for a certain number of days, that that's perhaps a better option. And interrupt the process there. And you know, you get a building permit, but before you can cut down 400 trees, there's a chance people will be like, or once you've cut down 30 trees, you know, like, oh my gosh, I can see where this is going now. You know, when they've staked it out to start digging a foundation, and you're like, wow, that is really close to my house, that then the people have a chance to appeal and it stops the building process. You know, that that might be a better option. Because some people really, when you look at plans on paper, there are people who it means nothing to.
And there may be people who are freaked out about it. And then when they actually start to do it, they're like, oh, that's actually not so bad. So it could go both ways. But what what you have is a really strict limitation on that right to appeal not mean it shifts the time a little bit, but I don't feel like it's necessarily in a good way. And it wouldn't stay just because you file suit, it wouldn't stay. wouldn't necessarily stay the building permit, but the building permits are probably not issued. To me, I think there's issues on both sides, right? It's, it's the, we make our decision. And there's a lot of times sometimes between when we make our decision and the building permit happens. And so we need to cover for that. I get why that's Jesse. Oh, Jesse, sorry. Sorry. And then, and then on the other side, too, after, after folks have a chance, like, you know, like Robin's point, if they're a visual person, and they don't really understand what's happening until they see it start to happen, we need to cover for both sides. So I think that's something that we need to cover for both sides of that somehow in here. And it should be time boxed somehow. But, again, you've got all that time between when we make a decision and when a building permit happens. So it's kind of, it's kind of a tough one to really truly time box. I mean, the other option is to have this 20 day window before building permits issue, but not have that be the only, you know, to open up a new period for appeals. I'm not sure I agree with that, either. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a very different way for us. I mean, a lot of, you know, I've just I've only worked with aЭedor for about two hours, it's a long journey and you'll just see an extraordinary thing happening. And I mean, there's great Todd, John Knie ten, and many of the other panelists that are typing on the chat, you know, we're building all these slides that are creating amazing things. So regardless of, you know, how we, how we see things happening in a clipboard would it be a best practice to set up a buffer there, in addition to an insurance? understanding how they can stop it.
I think this is to Jesse's point.
We want companies, people to know they can build in town if it's approved. Are we saying that Wayland residents don't have enough voice in any part of the current appeals process? Is that what this is trying to say? I know it's trying to introduce it earlier and that would help them stop whatever is going on. I do agree with the statement that said let's try to reduce risk on both sides. I'm not sure how this actually does that. It seems like it just gives one more pointed tool to the citizens. Maybe that's necessary. It doesn't feel like it. In my experience, obviously it's anecdotal. What I found in this most recent case, in this Veritas case, is sometimes an appeal can spark discussions and bring the two sides to the table to start some equivalent of a settlement negotiation. And what we found difficult was when we brought the applicant and the abutters to the table once construction had already started, the temperature was already so high in the room, they reached a meeting in the minds, but it was much more difficult to do that versus if those discussions had potentially happened earlier because the appeal had been filed earlier and sparked those discussions. The temperature was pretty high the first day of the first word. I mean, we tried to encourage those conversations very much. I mean, Doug, I know at our initial meeting on this, like this was one of the things that I brought up was, you know, we want people to participate in this process early on and we want them to come with their concerns. Right. And, and I do think sometimes it's tough to get that until they see the project to actually start and realize what's about to happen. And that's kind of how I feel about this case in particular. Yeah. But with some of our Dover applications, we've had some of them, the applicant is not interested in a dialogue. Correct. And so it's, yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until the rubber hit the road, maybe when the, when construction is threatened that they're willing to have a discussion in this room, willing to have a discussion, not that project, but the other some of the other projects. Yes. Um, are you done? Yes. Okay. I'm going to look at the language in your 610 and then one, two, three, four, fifth line. Um, you've got there after. And you want to read by zoning word of agreed by a decision of the zoning board of appeals. If there isn't a thereafter, if what, if there isn't a thereafter, if you got it out, you've got 30, you've got 20 days to file with the town clerk. Um, and they're after anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board of appeals may file to a court of competent jurisdiction in readings. And you have to go through this. It looked like maybe I'm reading it from now. It looked as though, um, if there is a decision that is issued by the CBA, not by the planning board, then you can't appeal because there's not a thereafter. It starts with any person agreed by a decision of the planning board with respect to site plan approval, uh, can appeal, uh, within 20 days. And then it says thereafter anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board. Some of our decision, our bylaw is set up so that site plan covers planning board and zoning board. So if the initial person or group issuing the permit is the zoning board, then they don't get a thereafter. And how, when do they get to appeal under 40 a 17 for a zoning board approval of the site plan? I follow you because this is only for an appeal of a planning board site. Yep. Um, and, and also for that, there isn't a mention well, that this section of the bylaw has been amended at least four times. I went back and looked at the history and looked at what it said in each of the, um, you know, meant the warrants for it. Um, and it's changed over time. It's basically the same. Uh, but the last time that it was changed, uh, it was changed in, I think it was 93. I mean, that's not the last time, but the last time that it got substantially this form was in 1993. And it said any person aggrieved by a decision of the planning board made it's required by this. And referred to a section, which is not the same section any longer may appeal said decision pursuant to mass general laws, 40 a section eight. And that is that section of the law says that, um, you can appeal from an administrative official. Okay. And then the bylaw went on to say any person agreed by a decision of the CBA made as required by this section of the bylaw may appeal. Ed decision pursuant to 40, a 17. So it's written now, it's not working because it's not hovering the zoning board.
What an instance where the ZBA would, what type of practice with the ZBA issue is site plan approval versus the planning board? A bunch of them. And in the bylaw, it spells out some of them. Um, would it depend now just looking at the site? If they are. terrain to the whole redevelopment that would have been triggered by a site plan and they knocked down the buildings and then rebuilt the buildings that would go to zba and it would have been a site plan and a special right so we could do and site plan doesn't apply to supposedly residential structures but there are residential uh things when we did um alta oxbow rivers edge uh the planning board did the site plan review and made the recommendation to the zoning board there are several of those kinds of things in the bylaw but if you if that if the thereafter sentence is intended only to refer back to these 20-day appeals that go to zoning you can change that by taking out the thereafter and just say anyone aggrieved by such a decision making it clear that you're referring back to the prior sentence because now it's just too too vague i wouldn't say such a decision because right now it's based on the 10 000 and 20 000 square foot stuff i think that's all he intends to apply that sentence to even if it comes from the zoning board because the zoning board will be doing no but it's only that sentence is only intended to apply to these 10 000 20 000 20 day appeals that's why i say you don't say such a decision you're referring to those ones just in the sentence before
also this will apply to school buildings municipal buildings anything the town builds as well so
there's a difference between site plan review and special permits and i know you know that because you've done research but special permits you have more we can impose more conditions the planning board can and the Zічar federal government can and other private defectors can not but special автомобiles you can impose more conditions the planning board can and the zoning board can but you don't hold two Office permits and one app adding one review for every type your County and Israeli way the zoning office you will want to make the Megins etc19ot websites need to come and see those are not even hours this is bleibenанияité the zoning policy is known in the color of the city you know for underwater debts you can't provide anything to thezaimian it was a only board can impose more conditions the site plan we can impose conditions on operations but we were generally following the bylaw and the kinds of appeals that people have wanted to take are things that we cannot under dover for example we cannot deal with those things we try and we try to help people come to the right decision but if there's an appeal and somebody says well i'm appealing because the traffic is bad that's that's nonsensical because they can't i mean they can appeal but you're just wasting everyone's time and slowing things down and costing the town money as well because when the lawsuits are filed they're generally filed against us as well and we have to defend so for me i understand what you're sort of trying to do but i don't think that what's on this paper does it you think there could be some type of bylaw amendment to permit a stay of a building permit was that what you were suggesting earlier robin if it if it's allowed and she's the one who would know that um you know for a stay for a period of time while the zoning board considers the appeal i think would be a better way to do that if it were for just a limited you know this gives if you gave the zoning board so many days to to deal with it and if not the building permit was back in business you might be able to do it because it's site plan and site plan is regulated by the municipality it's not a state function if it were a special permit i think you'd have a really hard time doing it i think my suggestion would be that
you pass over this if you pass over is the right thing i don't think that our my recommendation would not be favorable because i think it's got too many problems um with zoning bylaws if you if they're defeated they can't come back for two years unless the planning board brings them back um and i don't pass over i think is treated as um i think table i think it's treated as a loss send a continuing committee though it is yeah or send it to committee it's i think that that you can do or something like that miranda knows the right stuff to do um it'll be helpful to be part of this process and i think i think i highlighted i want to say i highlighted in the very beginning when we get to the meeting in the slept room was like nobody from town staff from planning was zoning or building look this over i could help you out to kind of craft this because my opinion my my suggestions are very similar to what you guys this is a mismatch of stuff this just does not work and i'm reading this and going i have to as a as a plan i have to i don't know how to deal with this and it's like it just it doesn't work it doesn't work it's it's feeling it's rushed it's feeling like it's you have you think there's an issue like we have to get something done now instead of just like going back like let's get this done correctly let's figure out what then what is you know what's what to get and figure this out so it'd be helpful to have staff that actually deal with building and planning and zoning be part of the discussion at this point so that we're all working together and we can actually catch things that like not from the legal piece point of view but the way of putting this together so it actually makes sense and it's read correctly because just popping things into zoning doesn't just always work it's kind of go back and make sure you know how's this complex section 603 just conflict so my biggest session is like isn't it kind of bring into community table it come back to the drawing board and figure out how to work together to make an article that actually works and it's actually enforceable i think it would be interesting too before we have it in paper and in front of the town to go to somebody at the ago and say look if we pat this pass this will this pass muster because if it isn't and then you mean because of the dover project yeah you know if if that's one of the things we want it to apply to and they say it can't apply to that then we need a better fix you need a different fix in in that example if they were agreed about bulk um i assume the zoning board of appeals would say you mean for a dover case yeah for a dover case would say well there's nothing to appeal um yeah we don't have uncertain of our zoning districts we have things about both but on other things we don't um so even though we're allowed to regulate bulk um we don't have set criteria um but what we've tried to do in those cases in the dover cases is try to get some articulation in the building some things move back a bit and it's worked reasonably well but you know sometimes there are projects that many people will not move at all and there's just we did our damnedest with all of the dover cases to try and take into account the things that the residents said that we had any way of making it happen can i um circle back a question on one of your earlier comments madam chair about zba in certain instances issuing site plan approval
and a person agreed wouldn't appeal a zba determination to the zba though right it would appeal to court yeah right which i which is what we want to have happen anyway but i thought you were saying would this apply to both cba and planning board it does apply to as a written court for zba there there's no internal whale and administrative court appeal if they issued the site plan approval that's it and your appeal route is court right okay that's helpful feedback um we had very little time to write a report um and we sort of started trying to do one to get ahead of this um and um i can hold the board and you can see where we are and you can hopefully make a decision of whether or not we want to go forward tonight well you can let us know like tomorrow um because we have you know virtually no time i did tell miranda that yeah we're going to endeavor to prepare a report yeah they wouldn't let me speak with my chair in the corner personally i wouldn't like to prepare a report for no reason yeah so how does the board feel about how this is currently in front of us has proposed decisions. Larry? I abstain. I don't fully comprehend the implications of what's being proposed. I would not be in favor of it as it's written. Yes, I have problems with the way it's written, although I agree with Larry that there are some understanding issues for me as well. Jesse? So I'm going to say I agree with it in principle, but I think it needs to apply on a much broader scale and have some actual timelines in it that apply to both sides of appealing. And as for me, I would not vote in favor of it because I just think it's too problematic as written now, and I think it needs a lot of work in conjunction with the planning board so that we can help to get what you want to get. So is that a no from Ira and Jesse? A no? Yes. I vote for it at the moment. Yeah, that's four. It sounded like four no's. I was not making sure because it was like. Yeah, I'm a no. Four no's and one abstain. Yep. So I don't think we're saying that . You just took the vote, but it's the report to town meeting that governs whether it can come back again. So if. You mean if you issue a report? We issue a report. We can take a vote. OK. Well, I'll do a real vote call vote. Sorry. That's fine. I just, I thought it was a shrug. No, I think you're right. I think we need to. It was. OK. Well, then we can keep it that way, and then maybe we should, for town meeting, put. How do we do this? Do an agenda and meet earlier to discuss where we are? I'm fine either way. I just wanted to clarify what we. He's not going to go into that. What we. Booklets. No, we agree on the report. Yeah. So if our board were to table it and you didn't issue a report. Yeah, I don't know that table is the right word. But right. But if Miranda tells you to do. Do what Miranda tells you to do. Yes. You can't vote on an article of zoning without a report from the planning board within, I think, it's 21 days. After the hearing. Yeah. and we're in that so if a report never issued then it can't get voted on right so you could just tell us but you're here and we don't want to not do something that you think you want us to do i just don't want to make the determination on my own yeah no i understand that i will um circle back with you tomorrow morning okay thank you okay thank you all for your time nice to see you doug thank you so that's the best way to handle this i think about wait to see what happens we're talking to the chair and the select board
and then potentially post a pre meeting town meeting and have like a little i don't know whether the town clubs said to post that as a way to be i guess
and that that will be determined what's going on because if they do do what maria says and pass over to the committee then you know we'll know from there so um what we just did was a straw poll and then we would actually vote at town meeting actually yeah i'm going to be a town meeting i know you're abstained but are you going to be a family i may not be okay this is on the second the last article so it'll be tuesday night yeah you hope it'll be tuesday night last day is the 30th no no last day after town meeting which is why if you still want to do the presentation i tell um so
tuesday uh yeah i can't be there yeah um so if a report did an issue that means it's not permitted before town meeting correct so the motion to pass over it isn't even relevant we're just going through the motions because the article is not properly before town meeting yes unless right unless we decided to do a report and again we don't want to not and we don't want to be blamed for not doing a report yeah which is why if we wanted to move forward right okay understand
you're fine yeah the beginning i'll be in touch tomorrow okay and i'll see you all hopefully next week did you go to the um tonight no no i wasn't able to care i was there right all right thank you thank you john i do not see that michael fair who's i thought he was gonna attend he did send us a request he is amazing i see the iphone work no this might be no this might be him it says iphone work otherwise we could continue with the agenda no i think i think this is him i think yeah hands raised i think it's probably him how are you michael are you the iphone work can you hear me guys okay sorry about that i was having a little trouble with the phone all right so we've had we have a decision that has the the temporary ceo running out next week prior to michael and michael fair the tension that it will run out and that we need to take some action or we'll have a lapse of use of this building starting next thursday so after a discussion michael has agreed to put in a request um and then he said follow me on today at 7.1 7 41 a.m um talks about the playboy condition of screening uh it's been completed he's waiting for the approval for dpw on that as well drawings um they're going back and forth from the storm final stormwater report
we see that at the end of business of to yesterday and is currently waiting for the dbw to review it will not make the may deadline and is asking for a extension until september 30th 2026 to resolve any issues that are outstanding when after reviewing the apple plan because the apple plan being in from where the town survey and the engineer looked did not match what was approved in september of 2023 so there's some work that needs to be done so this is not a quick easy fix you know done a month or two is going to be safety some time if they need to come back to the planning board for bigger improvements the agenda item that keeps on giving this is this will be the third extension i believe um michael i'd like to talk a little bit about what you need to do for the plan do you really think that you will be able to work through the plans and i'm assuming that you're going to have to come back to us for an amendment of your original plans i i'm not sure about an amendment in that and i don't have any control over what's going on at this point what we could control we have completed um i i'm at the mercy of the engineers and dpw at this point and it's not so much a case of not matching there is some things that don't match but it's more of a labeling and constructability questions on the as-built drawings that the engineer dpw wanted to see um on the as-built drawing so that's where that stands so just so i understand a little better i had understood i thought i understood that there was some construction that occurred that wasn't necessarily approved and that there was not stormwater control in the area of that construction uh well it's the calculations um for that piece of building and the concern was that it wasn't included in the calculate the original calculations and it was um all the areas that they were concerned with um the added we'll call them added but they were potential um ads on the original drawings those calculate those were all included in the calculations for the for the water um runoff so those are fine once again we i received those late yesterday afternoon i shipped them off to dpw so that they could um peruse them and hopefully give them their blessing okay um you stated that the screening was up around the utility area yes i've gone by and i can see everything behind those open slats what you had given us was a close a picture that showed uh covering the area we weren't interested in making it look uh those drawings were done those drawings were done by bill sterling that you have pictures too you said the picture the pictures were just representations of the type of construction that we had we were asked to match what was throughout the um the campus the uh downtown or the town center campus is what and that's what we did well they all have they all have screening on them but but they have dumpsters behind them um but that wasn't the intent in the intent of that was we were never asked to put the screening in so i touched base i touched base with bill and it wasn't his intent to have it there so our intent to have it there because the only reason we wanted the screening was so that you wouldn't be able to see the utility stuff and we gave you options we said you can use planting you can do whatever you want but we don't want to be able to see utilities and uh there's a picture attached to the decision that shows what's at the town center and um it has the screening behind it why would this journey be again that did he give a reason for that i don't think he he his intent wasn't to it would look like a big black wall but that's you know if i'll go back and have a conversation with him otherwise it's a shame that you spent money on just putting up what looks like sticks in front of it real stone is also online if you if he wants to talk how about plantings like arborvitae which we don't like in this case might work there isn't room for it oh there isn't a report
do you want to hear my comment yes please um as you know i've done many public buildings and every public building i've ever done security people particularly the police do not like to create hiding places on their land and so for security reasons i've always been told not to make a place where someone could um rob or even worse you know kidnap someone from along that parking lot edge so i am and i told this to mike as well i said this this is this is going to be a security problem if you put those black panels on the inside of those of those fences so i deliberately left that translucent space open in the area and that is where we are going to stay and if you want and i said this to mike as well i would recommend that you you could put a screen that has uh black mesh but still enough that you could see if someone is trying to hide behind there because it's actually a very dangerous thing to creating a hiding place on a parking lot it's a good point comments from the board um discussed that we wanted it screened and that was the discussion and the i think we all thought the agreement was that they were going to screen the utilities yeah the screen meaning you can't see it well to me a screen is not a wall right yeah meaning you it filters the view so you're not staring at electric right components more than just some vertical right yeah i wrote jesse i think bill's solution is is fine quite frankly yeah i don't have a problem with that either i just again attached to the decision there is a picture of the existing fence elevation with some kind of mesh or something that is uh blocking the view and that's what we had asked for i mean we don't care how you i don't think we necessarily care how you do it but putting it in a playpen doesn't really do much and i don't think it has to be you know a solid surface but some sort of a mesh something that gives just a little bit more disguise to what's behind it i think that was his suggestion was right no he won't sleep oh he said he would be willing to accept a mesh unless i misunderstood that right billy kind of a yes yes that's right translucent type of cover it'd be like a screen you can get a you can get all kinds of expanded metal screen sizes with a quarter inch half inch one inch yeah you would get a few samples and put them up there and you can decide which one screens it to your satisfaction not looking for you to spend a lot of money which we already have it's a little it's a little late for that well we said that was your decision what you were going to do we didn't tell you what to do you put the utilities there without permission to begin with and we were trying to work with you to accomplish what you wanted and what we thought was appropriate and i think you only need to screen you know that got to what i meant about clicking tiles and things and they didn't work out but on the andrew ave side therolling these theol and all of these fields we're only looking to work just you know what they are because i think if the problem is absolutely clear then we can invest into two of thosebots where you put these structures on and then we can do the extreme try and and the Route 20 side. You don't have to screen her on the back side. And you really don't even have to screen on the building side. You really can't see it from inside the building. What are you doing about, Robin? Yeah, maybe putting lattice up. Just do it in a limited area. So your security issue, you're not sacrificing security for the sake of a visual look. I mean, even just lattice is something like that on it. It's just better than bars. Okay, so you think an extension to September. We're now May, June, July, August, September. That's only five months.
Well, I'm hoping that they're at a point where they're on their third go-around. And I can't imagine there's much more left to discuss.
Robert, should we give them six months? I'd rather just give more time so we don't have to come back every time. That's how we go to May. I think last. Last time we went pretty long. I think you asked for the last time. Yeah. September 30th.
October 30th? Sure. What does the board feel about October 30th at six months? Sounds great. Yeah. To complete what, this fence? No. The final Asphalt plans. The final Asphalt plans, but also the fence should be done in that time frame as well. If not earlier. Do they need six months? We don't know what they need. We don't know what they need. He has to go back. He has no penalty for finishing early, right? Honestly, at this point, just make it longer so that you don't have to come back, you know, two weeks before it ends again, which is the case. So you ready for me to ask for a motion? Can I have a motion to grant the request for an extension of time on the council and aging community? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Now I will call for a motion. B. So I have the했습니다. So I have two votes. Okay. I vote. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Second. Second. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Next. Okay. quizzes. Great. Thank you. Thank you. particularly well from the roadways so moved second all in favor Jesse Newberry yes Larry Kiernan yes Annette um Robin Bergstead yes uh I wrote to you yes Annette Lewis yes um so Robert will prepare um a decision uh and if it's okay with the board and I have permission to work with Robert and sign the decision absolutely yes and we have a vote sorry I move that we allow Annette Lewis to work with Robert to finalize the decision for that second PBO3 second again okay uh Jesse Newberry yes Kiernan yes Robin Bergstead yes I reminded you yes Annette Lewis yes thank you everyone are you okay now um with what we have Mr. Fayette yes thank you very much okay thank you thank you guys did we get anything from uh Duncan yet um let me look I saw something but I'm not sure how I'm going to go back in time yeah you I figured if those guys were sitting on the line yeah she didn't have the she had the exact wastewater things that you're talking about there's a big email changing how much money they paid for the previous reasons because they paid in full but there's no like no gallons not the one's not the document that she has I have a questionnaire document but it's blank and then I have like a plan but it doesn't have like it's not like a plan of gallons it's just said plan of slay well if they paid money they had to pay per gallon they paid 26k 26 000 yeah and i don't know what they've been charging for the gallon and then they also had stuff before us if she said they paid to pay all this extra that's not to me it's not as worried it's not like you have a new you're opening a new restaurant and you have 100 seats and like we don't know or if it's 50 you know a patio in the back yeah but if if we have everything else we need from her can we close the hearing and make our approval condition on robert getting confirmation from the wastewater district yeah and we're receiving stuff enough receiving stuff that's what i would recommend yes and if she's subject to having sufficient gallonage and if not the specific gallon we're looking for a minimum capacity for the seating for the kitchen i don't know what that number is that's what people can tell us okay we need to close the public hearing and i'll say no okay um and i have a motion to close public hearing on pb 2602 289 boston post road dunkin donuts jimmy john site plan approval for outdoor dining i move that we close the public hearing on 2602 289 boston post road dunkin donuts jimmy john site plan approval for outdoor dining second you were beaten to it by ira good job ira catastrophe here um so um the hearing is closed and oh the first losing it i'm sorry i thought we didn't know okay we're going to vote on closing the hearing jesse newberg yes i reminded you yes robin borgstead yes larry kiernan yes annette lewis yes
um so on that one i just want to pull up my stuff again i need a two minute break uh you can do it right now so i think we said more um what the things were that we were going to put in there it was parking spaces some kind of condition about parking things or findings the trash can showing the trash cans right to add to the plan she's going to submit yeah hours hours as a condition which sure right and that there we'll talk about the fact that there is patio like and then waste water uh yeah and you have already talked to them about the no banners or advertising yeah that's something that's not right in my jurisdiction but yes okay well um the building commission slash zeo is going to give them 30 days okay should we put anything in the decision about no banners i would just leave it out i think they're trying to be fair because they didn't keep jersey mike it's the same treatment and then the hours of operation too we're going to do that and um okay so but we got we got to fix that with that we need to when he puts in next year he was saying it's a wild west of like wait for larry to come back to uh vote on that
to see what else we have to do can i take a break why don't we all take a break again uh we'll take a five minute recess
i think on doug's amendment if we all voted against it most of the town would vote for it i don't know i just i think people just don't care they're not even paying attention i don't mean yes everyone who lives near any recent large permit we approved they would rally the troops
we can do anything so um what we didn't do yet right robert was vote on uh duncan donut's jimmy john's we talked about what we were doing in the decision um so can i have a motion uh to approve the uh jimmy duncan donuts jimmy john's site plan for outdoor dining at 289 boston post road uh pb 2602 subject to receipt of the information uh on uh gallonage uh wastewater uh capacity so moved well and also that they show the trash cans on the plans yeah that they limit succeeding to four people upstairs and that their hours are 8 a.m to 9 p.m monday through saturday 8 a.m to 8 p.m on sundays and so moved okay thank you um yes i'll second sure okay just want to second it ira she bumped me out okay and um i'd like to add to that that um i'd be able to work that the chair be able to work with the town planner in finalizing the decision yes definitely okay so um jesse newberry you yes pause i remounted you yes larry kiernan yes robin borgstedt yes annette lewis yes okay yes that's great so um i think there are only two more things that we haven't done tonight and we're going to is preparing for the town meeting and um um we'll discuss a little bit about a report to town meeting six um which one would you like to do first fellows whichever okay well let's talk briefly about the uh report for a town meeting just talk through it because we're going to have to read it and we did more tonight i think in addition to that yeah so i had just drafted to get a start on the report so that we would have because we don't have a lot of time i just ran through the concerns that i voiced today like the fact that not all approvals or i think it's approvals have to be filed and they should fix that the fact that these are all the wrong sections they they've stuck them in in funny places where it's not going to make sense um that i think it's going to have to be filed and i think it's going to have to be in the comments that this really limits the right of appeal and doesn't expand it in a meaningful way um and that there are better solutions for what they're trying to do uh that this the proposed structure over 10 000 square feet and more than 20 square feet of this of uh the site being altered is something that's not everybody's going to know that about the site that's near them uh it will have to be something we put into our decisions so that people are aware of it also it doesn't work with the existing right doesn't it work with the existing file which has some different categories and this is between two categories um and then um let's see what else did i have in here
including we should include that it doesn't prevent the issuance of building permits
and even if there's a uh you know we could go to court right away or to the zva whatever that wouldn't stop it either no um um it's so i don't know the change in general read this because i wrote it and then brought a million other things um i think that with respect to certain types of projects especially doha projects this might not pass scrutiny with the attorney general's office um i really think that this is a it's a real narrowing of the right of appeal it's not a broadening of the right of appeal um yeah it gives somebody a little bit of a window before building permits but not in a meaningful way um it's a good way to say it too yeah um and those limitations there's also so chapter 40a sections 8 and 15 don't include this limitation in the right of appeal they have a very different right of appeal so it's another reason it might not pass the attorney general's office scrutiny let's see if you had an applicant that was that finished the site plan approval process and was ready to ask for building permits the next day you still might not have time to get an appeal and before the building permits issued but it also doesn't prevent the building permits from issuing um let's see i think it just you know in my view it just muddies everything without adding anything anything really meaningful so um for additional sections when we talked about the uh ten thousand and twenty thousand not working it doesn't work with six the section is 601.2.3 and it might be also 0.4 only really meaningful thing it gave provided was they could appeal sooner isn't that the net of the yes they can sooner but shorter yes
before their building permits issued but if it doesn't stop the building permits from issuing what is the purpose of that yeah
in in addition the way that it's structured in 610 um you cannot the way it's written um
you can only go i i think this is it you can only go to the zoo you can only go to the zoo yeah i think this is it you can only go to the zoo you can go to the zoo or still not due or still not due go to the zoning board of appeals um and you want to read my decision
yes only if there's a decision by the board of appeal now that's good
this is structured so that it only deals with planning board decisions and it talks about after a planning board decision then you can go to the planning board but if you have a zoning board decision on site plan and this section on appeals deals with the zoning board as well if the zoning board is issued a site plan decision um the way it's worded it doesn't look like you have a right of appeal because it has to the way it's written is you can only go after you've appealed a planning board decision am i making sense not entirely okay here any person agreed by decision of the planning board can take an appeal within 20 days of the date the site plan approval is filed with the template and then it says it's the thereafter thereafter anyone agreed so it doesn't say that anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board to take an appeal you'd have to have had an appeal from the planning board so it's written it doesn't necessarily cover that but that be fixed by taking out thereafter and just saying anyone yes by a decision right it just shows that they didn't right in drafting they did not think nothing through right also the town has considered this stuff four different times before and um what we've got now is similar to what we had in 1993 and there was a reason for doing that that way and they treated site plan different from special permit and they wanted to treat it differently
so does this proposal make the appellate process for special permits the same as still different isn't it site planner special does it treat them the same you're saying that when the town made this change to what we have right now yes it wanted site plan and special permit different right does this change bring them back to being the same
if you take out the thereafter uh
the same look at all the statutes sorry they're all here eight says an appeal to the permit granting authority as the zoning ordinance by law may provide may be taken by any person agreed by reason of his inability to obtain a permit or enforcement action from any administrative officer under the provisions of this chapter or by any person including an officer or board of city or town or other administrative official violation of division so the section eight is the one that currently we rely on and that is different from uh section 17. section 17 says a person agreed by the decision of the board of appeals or any special permit granting authority or by failure of the board of appeals to take final action concerning any appeal application or petition within the required time may appeal to the land court department the superior court department in which the land concerned is situated by bringing an action within 20 days after it's been filed so i think the answer is yes it would make the the same as the special permit judicial review okay but only because of that thereafter sentence if we take out the word thereafter it's and and make it any so that it says anyone aggrieved by a decision of the zoning board of appeals may appeal to a court of confidence jurisdiction in accordance with 40a 17 and that would give you the 20-day period 17 is the one with the highlighted stuff and right now 17 doesn't apply to site plan of the
special permit so this does not appeal to site plan approvals i think not but hold on no aid is what applies right now aid applies to site plan approvals okay but this would apply after the zba has issued a decision yes so any decision and technically this is just for special permits however we're allowed to write our bylaws so that we can glom on to the special permit
but if we take out thereafter anyone agreed by a decision of the zoning board appeals can go under 17 that's true yes because anyone can go under 17. so then that kind of
it just makes it more clear that it's only zoning board decisions that go under 17 or a special permit because we're not talking about since they've given us 20 days in what they've written that's putting us into 17 as well apparently yeah but they still have the 8 and 15. so it's just very confusing well the 8 and 15 is for all other projects okay well it's not for the 20 the 10 000 and 20 000 projects i don't understand the 10 20 000 right that's a different question but this our special permits being treated the same as site plans i think if we change if they change that sentence in the future for this report it's in there and so it's as being a problem
and i haven't gotten my second wing yet i'm not getting a second this is my second wave i guess is there a large project people are particularly concerned about is that is there a rush i don't think so i don't think so but you never know what's coming you're not expecting anything wrong
potentially yeah
something a site a site plan kind of yes this wasn't flowing around that's not soon but by the end of the year and even if it even if it's past semester with the attorney general you're still talking four months before it could possibly be in effect oh it's not instantaneous when you sit it down right it's not much more active
so i'll wait for doug's call and then i'll let you know what he says because then how do we want to do that logistically yeah then we'd have to have you draft it and get it out to us i guess via robert and then we're going to meet before and then we'd have to meet if i'll post it's not too late is it to post for now give from monday to monday thursday of friday monday say goodbye and close them all close tomorrow and that would be okay for monday evening yeah because if you're friday no saturday no sunday and then monday okay so i would post it because we're going to need you tell me it starts at 6 30 so six o'clock 6 30 for six o'clock on monday everyone yeah can we do that are we meeting someplace ahead of time yes before town meeting starts we'll meet near the check-in okay area and then we'll find a place to stand but you said that's like 6 30. six six because the meeting starts at 6 30. okay yeah i can do it that's if we need it not to treat sony if they decide to
not take any action or yeah well we'll see but be ready to post i would post it and if we don't have to meet we don't have to meet oh right i would post it yeah we were thinking of having having to meet in order to do the duck and don't think about that at that time right so but i would leave in case something comes up so for monday at six yeah yeah i'll send it to you tomorrow morning okay thank you take a look at it are we still you are we still is protocol still i move you sir um does that change yeah unless you don't know i move you madam but i don't know if that's changed or not but no i'm just planning to say i'm moving madam well there's a whole thing that's already prepared for us to say oh yeah when we went to the meeting yeah
the motion things are yeah i have mine it's at home so that everybody yeah okay um that's what we have to do next is just go over um town meeting yeah i move you madam this is yours alva thank you um these are all online but i just printed them off so that we could talk about them um this is what you're suggesting i read because i were right that's the motion but i wouldn't you sort of have to if you have to talk to then you have to yes you do it so i need to read all of this yeah oh unless she says that yeah i don't think it's abbreviated procedure i think these are all regular so if they what article was that one 20 22 yeah none of ours are abbreviated procedure you have to read the whole thing before i give my before you give your spiel yeah holy mackerel that's a lot okay and then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you after you read that then she recognizes you she says i recognize you sir and then you well first you get up there and you'll say i reminded you your street address i've done this but it's been a while okay address now and member of the planning board yeah and she'll say i recognize you sir and then you say i move you sir or madam and then she'll say would you like to talk about your yes yes and then you read that and then she'll ask if you want to speak to your emotion right that's what i meant and then you'll speak to your emotions do you know what you're going to say to your emotions i just tell them is it yep okay good people's or not um yeah we did this while ago didn't we well we didn't write our right i wrote i wrote my road up and sent it in but i did i i sent it by email it to jesse do you have a copy of do you know where the emotions did now yeah i mean you've just sent it to everybody in the planning board it's on the website and it's under the uh town meeting and there's a click into 2026 there's a list of all the motions for each article and here's this article on the floodplain thing is article 23 jesse okay and it's very short it's not out it's not exactly and you can look at the reports that we did which are in the back of the warrant so i'm sorry what i wrote little actually more than a blurb you want that you want me to send that into the total board email to everybody or not necessary it's up to you it's just we just want to make sure that you're ready to speak to your motion and answer questions and if you're not or there's something that you're not sure of that you can look to robert and he's going to we can get him to i think we are allowed to get you to answer a question aren't we yeah either they do a vote in the beginning or that the vote is every time oh for you you're non-resident yeah oh okay because there's a list of people but you're not one of them okay well you could whisper you can whisper in one of our ears yes no but they can easily they can easily also vote in i know but it takes too much time yeah i'm not sure why i'm not Melissa again if there's something someone asks we trade jobs they will honestly and i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know the answer i'm supposed to flag him down or is he going to be right there we're all going to be hopefully sitting i'll move up i'll move up face in the back because it was not well you have to sit where the non-residents have to see yeah i know exactly yeah yeah i usually move up to the zone and bta move to the front because it's those those bleachers on the far side it's yeah there's a list of people
so he has to then walk up to the mic to answer what i know he's evidently not you'll he'll whisper in one of our ears and we'll come up one of us will stand up okay and it's just too much work to have their vote in you have to vote in every time a non-resident to to talk i don't think i'm going to challenge any of my stuff they should really what they should do is have a huge list of all-town employees like department heads just take department heads and just take those just that less genetically i think the reason that it isn't is because there were people that they didn't want to hear from others didn't want to hear from them
i know but it could be way worse 47 years sorry okay all right so mine's listed in there as article 23 right it is okay uh yeah i'll be fine with this one larry if you if you have something different than what the proposer's comments are in here um just send it to me i don't see it in my email yet
or like the other way so if that means you can't be in the same state with me that gives me enough to work with though yeah the tricky thing about what you're working with is there are two separate districts one is the uh federal floodplain district and the other is this town's floodplain district right we're different and we're really amending this because of the federal floodplain district thing and we amended the maps last year but we're dealing with it again because they weren't final last year they weren't final until like july last year so we couldn't do it well they gave us numbers anyway um but um this state uh felt that we needed to uh incorporate more of the federal requirements into our bylaw there'll be a ton of interest in this i think you're just gonna read it they're gonna vote and that's the end of it keep our fema eligibility and boom yeah i think i think like that's the key yeah that's the key point this this keeps our fema eligibility and helps us qualify for the national flood insurance program please i'd vote for it sounds great yeah is there any big initiative that like is going to pull everybody from the town in like yes the budget that one in uh orchard lane and i'm sorry what what's your thing that's allowed uh and we don't know yet what edc is planning on uh our article 25 and i haven't been able to speak to town council i just got uh and i did alert the uh town moderator to the fact that there might be an amendment to our article and that i would give her information in advance um of what i knew right i think it's out of scope in that on the floor we may need to be consulting with town council at the time of an amendment depending on what she offers right hey um robin has the accessory dwelling unit by law and i'm going to ask her tomorrow um on the accessory dwelling in it to make sure that our understanding is correct with your time and is there any other questions or any other additional questions that you want to hear about um in that regard um absolutely um well thank you for on the two minutesいい we'll see you next week um of how many you can actually have and if we need to do anything to that one section where we say see article one or whatever yeah i i like the idea of leaving it saying that because i anticipate that somebody's going to realize they have to change the multi-family definition to allow so yeah i was talking to somebody who's friends with eric schulman and she said you need to talk to him because they have to fix that oh and i haven't talked to him but he looks like he works at state now right he yeah because he used to work he said he used to be trapped yeah now he's here they all move around i can't keep track of all around yeah um with the i'll do mine in a minute but if the select board goes ahead with the planning board of appeals thing uh they will make the motion uh but we would have to uh speak to the uh yeah report
wants to volunteer for that well if i've written the report it probably makes i don't want to but it makes the most sense for me to do it okay i was going to originally ask jesse to do it because larry was going to be doing floodplain okay that would be great if you could i hope we don't have to and in the um i haven't written it written it but i have the outline more um dimensional changes to the river's edge not representing oh my god uh this is the 20 20 west wait too sorry i can get that okay i can't believe i can just all the time i have all this paper and i put it together so that i'll be able to speak. I'm going to try, I want to get all the information out, but I'm going to try to keep it short because anybody who wants to oppose it has the same number of minutes as I use up to seven. So I'm going to try for three. And I'm not sure I'm going to put all these things in, but a good number of them, it would work for almost two years to come up with districts that would be unobtrusive to existing residential neighborhoods, would comply with state requirements, and would meet thresholds established in the state's complicated computer model, all to meet the state's desire to increase the number of housing units. We obtained two state grants totaling $49,320 for technical assistance in preparing documentation and compliance, including the required modeling. When the state did not take, what the state didn't do was take into account the number of units that were required for the housing units. And we obtained $49,320 for technical assistance in preparing documentation and compliance, including the required modeling. When the state did not take, what the state didn't do was take into account how likely it would be for a developer to want to undertake such developments. It all turns on the economic feasibility analysis of project costs, revenues, degree of risk, and estimated return. Those factors also determine whether the project can obtain financing at all. Several studies published after Wayland's multifamily zoning had been prepared look at the financial feasibility of such projects and made clear that additional costs involved in multi-family development, such as parking structures, land for parking areas, amenities, lot coverage, set limits, et cetera, increase the cost of development without necessarily equating with the ability to charge higher rents. Again, we'll have to shorten this. The Route 20 West Overland District adjacent to the Sudbury line is an underdeveloped 7.8 acre commercially zoned area consisting of four lots, each under separate ownership. Minimum lot size for this multifamily overlay district is two acres. So currently only two of the lots can take advantage of the overlay. That's a 3.1 acre lot near, at the rear of 534 Boston Post Road at the western edge of the district and a 2.14 acre lot, 526 Boston Post Road next to the Sudbury landfill. Uh, the 1.52 acre property, uh, has the Sudbury community pantry on it. It just, uh, it's, it's less than two acres. Uh, and there are two easements near the perimeters of that property that would include placement of the building. Uh, the overlay zone, it's also requires 20% maximum lot coverage. So some of these, I might say for answers to questions, um, section 198-2707.3.3 of the multifamily bylaw requires screening and buffering to create visual barriers, already requires that to create visual barriers. Public streets and PB regulations at 306-3 spell out performance standards, such as design elements to break up the length of building walls, setbacks to break up the apparent height certification from the fire department concerning adequate access for fire and service equipment around the entire building. So precluding buildings from being located too close to Route 20 and surface parking, uh, may not be within the minimum setback area. We want to allow town meeting to vote on this change, unlike the rivers edge case where town meeting did make a decision. And then it was overridden by the CBA that allowed more units and greater height than was established in the approved bylaw. If we truly want more multifamily housing, and this proposal is the way to get it, uh, it will provide more tax revenue to the town. The only thing would be whether you want to throw in something that says that, that making changes to this bylaw on the floor could imperil only, I think what I'm going to, that's, I'm hoping that I get something from town council in advance that says that you can't do it. Right. But it, but if they were to make certain changes, if it knocks out our whole MBTA plan that we, we risk losing state funding. So, you know, whatever Carolyn gives you on that, but if they were to make a change that knocks out. Our MBTA plan, there are real risks for the town. I think the implications of that though are pretty well known at this point, don't you? No. Nobody knows anything anymore. I think people who live in towns that didn't pass it and who are currently embroiled in litigation, they do, but Whelan passed it. We didn't have any issue with that. So, you know, I think some of the towns that fought against it have been aware. Okay. I'll figure out how to get it in. I don't want to, I don't want to invite it. Okay. No. No. And let Carolyn kind of offer the guidance there. Right. And I talked to Miranda about it and she said that I should get Carolyn to consider it in advance and let Miranda know. And then that would be easiest. Okay. If we can do it that way. Is there anything else that you think? No. Okay. Read it really fast. I want people to hear it. So I'll figure out how to do it. I don't read it fast. Okay. So is that, we're ready for town meeting? And Ira, you'll be there, right? This year? This last year? Do you want me to call you to make sure? Is there anything else that we need to do? Do you want to talk about the schedule or you just wanted to give it to us? Oh, that was just like an update. Okay. But just like, so you have it. Okay. Should you send it to Bill as well? Uh, If you need it. I'll send it to Bill. Okay. Thank you. Would you like a motion? I think I would just checking. Okay. Okay. The, um, for the next meeting we have, our minutes will be ready for the next meeting, right? Robert? Hopefully. Okay. So we have, um, okay. The oak tree management, the shared living thing is coming in. The town center people are coming in. And, um, so far that's the only thing that we have. Okay. So, um, I think that's the only thing that we have to do. This. Robert. Is that what we decided? What? The meeting for the 13th. We decided we were going to do that in person because the town center guys were coming in. It's in a slipper. Oh, it is. I thought it was. Okay. What's the. Well, cause some of the town center guys don't live around here. Some do. Yeah. Yeah. In case. No. Chicago. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we were hoping some of them would come in person. Yes. Thank you. Right. I mean, they show up. They slept with me on Monday night. So I would expect that they probably be in person. Yeah, I think so too. So we're going to be there, um, hopefully in person. At our next meeting, May 13th. Also, it helps with according to it. Cause it's the team recorded. So we do the meds. It's a lot easier. Do the meds after the fact. You hybrid. Um, agenda with, uh, center. They came into touch. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they came in to talk to the select board on Monday, and I was there to just be there for the Warren hearing, and then I talked to them on the way out. The message that they gave to the select board was, we do need to make changes. We want to make changes. We're willing to do them piecemeal, you know, in chunks. We just want to make progress. And one of the big concerns is signage at the entries. So I walked out to talk to them afterward and told them that I thought the board would be willing to work with them, and they're scheduled to come in and talk to us on the 13th, that for some things, we might be able to do it with just phase two site plan approval. Some things will require an amendment to the master special permit, and some things are going to require change to zoning. So we would try and work with them on that. And the signage, unfortunately, may be covered by the zoning. And that was the first thing they wanted to be working on. So they said, well, would it be helpful if when we came, we were more focused than we were with the select board? And I said, yeah, it would be really helpful. They had ideas about the town green. They were thinking of a playground. Water park? No. None of that stuff. No, they tried. It didn't work with the soil. It's so boggy over there. No, not necessarily. The agreements, the underlying agreement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can't work. They tried it. So they said that they weren't talking about equipment, but they were talking about sort of sculptured areas where you could sit and things like that. Because I said, you know, the playground would actually require an amendment. I think to the zoning. And they said, well, why? I said, well, because it was permitted as open space. I mean, it wasn't meant to have stuff on it like that. And they said, well, you know, this is sort of our idea, sort of landscaping. Tell us, you know, and maybe we can do it. Figure out how to do it. But they seemed certainly much easier to work with than the original town center. I've been on several. I've been on several. I've been on several calls regarding the round trip. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm really excited. You didn't even meet the third real partner. Christy is one of the person who works for, I forget his name, but there's a third partner in Chicago. But he's like super busy. But like, yeah, he's not here. He's not hands on. But he's more of like he's also one of the partners. But he's the visionary. Well, yeah. But Christy, I think she's, her job is to work on this, this, this technical stuff, which is really technical. All the agreements with all the loans and liens and stuff they have. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And I did send them, I asked if they wanted, and I had done an analysis of this 54 page document that Tony Whalen put together called easements, covenants and restrictions. And it's just mind boggling. And I put it together for Terry Carlson years ago. And I asked if they wanted that. And they said, yes. So I sent them that. And I sent them the planning board's report to town meeting on the, when we passed the original zoning in 06, so that they could see what the intent was. And I'll get them to you too, guys, so that you can see what the intent was. I'll send it to Robert. He can put it. I think I did send it to you, Robert.
Is there anything else? Motion to adjourn. Okay. Seconded.
All in favor. Jesse Newberry. Yes. All in favor. No.
You already know that. You already know the miss. It's your number. Yes. Yes, you lose. Oh, my gosh. It's so funny. Just think you're getting off the board and everything's wonderful.