February 3, 2026 – Surface Water Quality Committee – Video & Transcript

February 3, 2026 - Surface Water Quality Committee

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It's 7.03 now, PM. So let's go around the virtual room and announce our presence. I'll start off. Tom Klem, chair, present. Tom Largy, present. Steve, your own present. Okay. And hopefully Larry can join us. This is a moment of flux. This would be Larry's first meeting. Carol Plum called me a couple nights ago. She is resigning her seat on the committee. Oh, well, we have a replacement for her. Melissa somebody, right? Melissa, yes. So let's not tell her yet because I know. I'm not telling her anything. I've got to go through the town. I have to let the town know, and then they've got to post it. But then we can see if Melissa's interested. But Carol's tied up with the Wayland Post, and she attends all the town meetings. So she is out, and I saw that she submitted her resignation. So I will go through the process of having the opening posted. Nobody will apply for the seat, and then we can reach out to Melissa. Tom, should I text Larry and ask him if he's joining? Yeah, Tom, if you could, please, because he knows that tonight we are meeting, and he said he was available. Okay. Yeah. All righty. I'll do that. So we'll wait a moment until we hear. We'll see how quick Larry is on his texting. Okay. Well.
Oh, and you know what? He's, I wonder if he even got an invite. Let me see if he's emailed me. Well, yeah, that's the issue. So maybe, maybe you should.
Let me, let me forward him my, my invite. And that way, if he sees your text and he can join. Okay. I've got a link and he'll have to change his name when he gets it. So let me go ahead and do that. Okay. All right. I'll say that, uh, Tom Klem forwarding, uh, Eva invite. Okay.
All righty. Forwarding. Invite.
Oh, forwarding. Forwarding.
Okay. All right. A little AI to pick up a misspelling. All right. Larry Kiernan. There we go.
Okay. But we'll, we'll go ahead and, and, and get started anyway. So, yeah. So Carol's, um, responsibilities on the paper are, are taking up too much of her time. Yeah. Okay. So she's resigned her seat. So I'll, um, initiate the process, make the town aware. They'll post it. And then Steve, um, when, when that two weeks window has closed, then we can, um, uh, ask Melissa if she's interested. And that's great because, uh, you know, I know she, she had expressed interest. It'll be great to have her as part of the commission. I actually mentioned it before I knew there was not a position. I think you remember that. I did. Yeah. You did express interest and Tom Largy, um, she's, she's a hot ticket. She, he's connected. What's her last name? Um, I don't remember actually. Hang on. Does she, does she live on the pond or, or what? She lives, yeah, she lives around Dudley Pond. Yeah. Near the pond. Okay. Near the pond. All right. She's very smart and very connected in terms of things like grants and other things. A lot of energy, a lot of interest. Sounds, uh, sounds, uh, welcome. By the way, uh, Carol, um, and I'll, I'll probably thank her personally. Um, uh, uh, uh, uh, the Wayland Post, the articles, uh, she's written for the article for the Wayland Post have been super and, um, I mean, huge, huge effort. Um, so it's, uh, nice to have that. And, and I, I told her, I told her that, you know, she, she'll forward me, uh, links to things going around in town that bear on this committee and just in general. So she's been a great resource for that kind of thing. And she said, she'll still do it because she's finding it just in the process of being part of the newspaper. So she'll still be that the eyes and ears of what's going on in the town and of matters of interest in this committee. So we'll still have that as a resource. By the way, I, I also write for the Wayland Post. I, I'm not as involved as she is, but if we need information to get out, I can do that. Okay. Well, yeah, you know, uh, Steve, uh, uh, I'll mention it now and I'll mention it later, but, uh, when things are happening, as an example, the harvester out on a Dudley pond, then, uh, get a photo out there and get, get, uh, you know, show it all there. I'm sure they're hungry for, uh, for material, but that's the kind of thing the town needs to know. And, uh, you know, over the years, um, I've occasionally written one on herd pond, not for a few years, but otherwise it's a complete mystery to the rest of the town. I know that's, that's all there is to it. And, uh, so, uh, I, I, I, I got started with them, uh, uh, doing arts, you know, like arts and music, you know, music. I know nothing about art, but they sort of pigeonholed me into like arts editing and I've been doing it, but I, I recently told the editors, I said, I want to do more. I, I, you know, I, I don't know anything about artists. I interview them and I report on them, but I have no idea about any of it music. I know. So I think I'm going to be branching out into areas that will make it easier for me to report on what we're doing and the DPA and so on. Absolutely. Absolutely. Badly needed. Yep. Okay. Well, let's, let's, uh, commence into the agenda. Cool.
Uh, Steve, you know, and drew, drew lay, drew a, I don't know how you pronounce her last name and drew a drew a so Tom and drew a is, is, uh, another person who lose, uh, on Dudley pond and she had asked when the next meeting was. I told her it was tonight and her, her, uh, topic was about, uh, uh, salt that's applied to the roads and wash off into the ponds and what the impact may be. And so she's not here, but just to, to make you aware, she'll show up at some point, maybe she'll show up tonight. Uh, but she wanted to, I know that's for her, that's been an issue she's been concerned with for a while, but she wanted to come before this committee and just raise the point and ask if we're involved in that in any way. Um, but, um, you know, she didn't reply to my email from a few days or last week, actually. So just an FYI that she will probably come before us at some point to talk about salt and runoff and impact on. Yeah. Well, we, uh, we all wonder about, uh, things like that. Um, uh, uh, I, you, you, you two may not remember that, uh, quite a few years ago, um, Weston, a town of Weston had its own town wells. And what happened was that, um, the, uh, mass DOT built a salt shed by the mass turnpike and just the runoff from the, uh, salt shed, um, destroyed the town of Weston, Weston's wells. This is, uh, 30, 40 years ago. And, uh, Weston therefore had to go on to MWRA water. I mean, that was a serious, serious event. Uh, uh, so, uh, yeah, we all wonder about that. You know, Tanya, Tanya says, put some salt out onto the, uh, onto the wok. And I say, I'm not going to essentially, I'm not going to do it until we absolutely need some, uh, not, uh, not indiscriminately. I'm very, I'm very parsimonious with the salt around here too. And we're, you know, we're a quarter of my life in the pond. I try not to use the stuff, but sometimes you have to. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Uh, anyways, uh, and may come before us at some point. Uh, the next item on the agenda is, are the minutes from December 2nd? And, uh, if there are no comments, I know this is two months ago and it was over the holidays, so I'm sure they're fresh in everybody's mind. Oh yeah. But, uh, if there are no comments, I am going to make a motion to approve the minutes from December 2nd. Okay. I second that. Okay. Steve or Tom gets the second and let's go around the room and, uh, make a vote on that. So, Tom Klem, I. And Tom Largi, I. Steve Garone, I. Thank you all. All right.
You realize this, Steve, when it comes to these, uh, uh, virtual, um, ascents, it says, uh, Tom is right after a Tom, that everybody else should, uh, pause a moment. Uh, and, um, it just makes sense, even though S is before T. Yeah, maybe I should squeeze myself in between.
All right. Uh, the first thing I put on the agenda this time was Herd Pond because, uh, you know, Herd Pond is really becoming the, the focus of, of this committee. And we have the chronic problem of the water chestnuts. We have a limited budget and we hope, and we will this coming season. Uh, apply both the hand, uh, hand harvesting of the water chestnuts and we have plans for herbicide application. And so, um, I want to talk about that because, um, for both those things, the hand harvesting and the, and the, the clear cast application, uh, I'm working with the town, you know, we've had these contracts, the hand harvesting with solitude for years now, the, uh, um, the clear cast was a new one from last year, but the town has, uh, Kelsey has, uh, raised the subject of going through the RFP process. So I've been engaging with her on that. She's going to review some materials I sent, uh, Tom, what I've done with regard to clear cast, because that's going to be the most time pressing is I've taken what John Bugbee wrote a couple of years ago for Priscilla core. You know, we had to go through the RFP process for that. I've basically taken that document and just re rewritten it for, for clear cast. Um, but I want to get that. If we have to do that, I want to get that going this week because it's got to go out. And I think that's got two weeks for any bids to come in. Uh, and then we can, we can engage solitude, uh, Tom question for you. You know, I, I don't want to, I I'm sure that there's not going to be people fighting over, uh, a bid to apply this herbicide and herd pond. I'm keen to reach out to Keith and Tanner at solitude to get a quote, but I, I don't want to be, I don't want to jump the gun too much because of the RFP process. You shouldn't have any of this information. Uh, well, then they would naturally, um, if it's an RFP process and they would, should naturally, um, get a request for a quote anyway. Uh, right. Uh, so I, I, I, I would not think that's a problem. Uh, um, well, I mean, I don't want, you know, it's, it could be prejudicial. It's, you know, let's say somebody else comes in with a bid and we know what that Keith and Tanner would be, you know, would, would pay a certain, would, it would cost a certain amount and if somebody else comes in and they, they charge less, uh, well, that's, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's, um, uh, a hard one, uh, you know, essentially, uh, uh, uh, they have quite an advantage, mainly they know the pond, but an RFP, um, uh, uh, is, um, going to be based on, uh, the report from last year and whatever the recommendations are, uh, the recommendations may, were something like may, may be needed, but, uh, the RFP should, um, stipulate, uh, an inspection, uh, a, uh, treatment in early July, a treatment in, um, early August, an inspection and a report and, uh, and, uh, the, the problem is that, um, the, um, the acreage, uh, uh, uh, I, I think has expanded a little bit, uh, you've got the, uh, fish and wildlife, uh, area that was not treated and, uh, you and I were out in the pond, uh, last August and, uh, uh, clearly there was, there were a lot of, uh, plants, uh, outside of the treated area, which, um, we would hope would, uh, show in the inspection. It's, it's a tricky thing. It's a tricky thing. Let me, let me pause you there, Tom. Steve, I want to get you caught up on this. So, uh, you recall last year, we, we went through this whole process to get permitted to do clear cast on herd pond. Right. And we eventually got that approval and we had, uh, solitude contracted to go out there and they do, and do that. And they did apply the clear cast. It wasn't by any means, uh, a home run. They, they treat, they, they, one, they, they couldn't really get closest to shore where these plants are densest because that's, that's in their interpretation of fish and wildlife, the fish and wildlife boundary extends into the water by however many feet that was. So they didn't treat that. That's really where it's most, most dense, but the areas they did treat, which were not as dense in, in water chestnut, it wasn't quite clear how effective the treatment was. We didn't see some brown and dead plants, but there were a lot of viable plants. They, there were a lot of seeds, uh, that likely got dropped. So it wasn't quite clear that this was, you know, uh, an obvious home run that the clear cast really did a good job on these plants last season. And I think it's gonna be hard to tell going forward too, because there've been so many years of dense growth of water chestnuts that even if we, and if it'll be hard to determine what success is, but based on last season's indeterminate conclusion, we'd like to hit the pond a bit harder and really hit that area closer to shore, um, and see if we can get a better effect. Tom has reached out to, uh, the state. Yeah. Well, it's a fish and wildlife. Uh, I've heard nothing. Not only that, uh, um, uh, Stephanie Koch's, uh, mailbox, uh, seems to be perpetually full of her voice mailbox. So, uh, I, uh, you know, it's fish and wildlife. They've, uh, been impacted, uh, heavily, uh, by, you know, all these, uh, Washington cutbacks, who knows what's going on. Uh, yeah. Stephanie Cox is, uh, is fish and wildlife. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Yeah. Oh, it's federal. Yeah. It's federal. Yeah. It's Great Meadows National Wildlife Refuge. Ah, okay. Yeah. And I, I, um, I guess the next step is to, uh, reach out to, uh, the director and, um, and, um, uh, I did, uh, talk with her briefly last year and just see what the, the state state was, but, uh, you, you know, uh, uh, Tom, uh, uh, I, you and I discussed, uh, that I'd had a, uh, also a discussion with Linda Hanson, uh, who's a Whelan Conservation Administrator. Yes. And from her point of view, she issued a permit for the pond and that's the whole pond. And, um, uh, you know, there's, um, uh, there's an issue, there's something called Massachusetts Great Ponds. It's, uh, uh, it's been there since colonial times and, uh, uh, uh, bodies of water, natural bodies of water, not, uh, uh, impounded bodies are the property of, uh, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts if they're over 10 acres. Uh, so, uh, as an example, as a pond in Lincoln Ferrer Pond, which is off of, um, Route 117, it's dammed and pounded and, um, it's therefore the property of, um, the, uh, butters. So many, many years ago, probably over 40 years ago, I was out ice fishing on the pond. And a, uh, town of Lincoln police officer came across the pond to tell me it was private property and get off. Um, I don't know if that still happens. Whereas, uh, if fish and wildlife has some boundaries, uh, seem to be, uh, going across the pond, I'm not certain, um, if they really own it or not. Uh, and in fact, uh, when, uh, solitude was out there and made their determination of the boundaries, uh, that's, uh, it's a complete, uh, mystery to us unless they had some GPS coordinates, um, yes, um, uh, uh, you know, otherwise an impossibility. But again, from Linda Hanson's point of view, um, we are permitted under the, um, you know, from the Whale and Conservation Commission under Massachusetts laws to treat the pond. That's all there is to it. And, um, um, so I, uh, I guess, uh, my, my, you know, as Tom and I, uh, Tom Klem and I discussed a bit, um, I think we, uh, proceed on that. Um, the other reality is it will never, ever be checked. Never. Yep. Um, uh, so I agree with you, Tom, I'm totally aligned with you. We're going to proceed with this. So starting with that RFP. So, you know, uh, so we're going to proceed. If we find out anything that would truly prohibit us, then we, we don't, but I, I'm not going to wait for Stephanie or anybody higher up to weigh in. So I agree with your, with your rationale. Uh, we have the, uh, the, the permit from Linda, uh, it covers the pond that's in the water. And I, I don't re and you know, the land is, um, fish and wildlife. Well, I guess fish would be the water too, but I'm, we're going to, uh, we're going to proceed with this, this action starting with the RFP, but I wanted to just raise the point. It's always been confusing to me why they claim next. I never recall at all during the process of getting the permit where they were the solitude team raised awareness of this point that there was a boundary in the water that they couldn't treat. So we'll, we'll proceed and we'll see what we learn between now and the time we get, well, between now and this summer when they, when they're ready to go into the water. So yeah, we're not going to wait on that to do any action. We need to get the RFP in there now and get the contract in place where we're in position to apply this herbicide in the, in the spring. Okay. And likewise, if we do something on the, uh, hand pulling, um, um, it's got to include some kind of inspection, um, early July, early August, the same parameters, whether it's hand pulling or, or an herbicide, um, the same things, uh, uh, apply the same dates. Um, so Tom, let me, let me ask you this. So that segues into the next part of this. So, you know, we also do the hand pulling the hand harvesting of water chestnuts. We're going to have a $30,000 budget. I know when my recollection, uh, when Keith gave us the quote for that 13 acre section of Heard Pond, uh, is that was around 10,000 ish or so dollars. I actually thought it was closer to 15,000. My point is this, if we, we're going to get a quote this year for that same 13 acres, I don't know what it'll cost. It'll be more. I wonder, and given the challenges with having a crew to come out and really make any kind of dent with hand harvesting, would you want to go all in on the clear cast this year and devote the bulk of the budget for that and forego if we needed to the hand harvesting? Well, the hand harvesting, uh, uh, really is, uh, for the majority of the, uh, pond and, um, when it, and it's, uh, sporadic, uh, uh, it's, uh, awfully hard to say, uh, but somebody, uh, has got to go through in a boat and do the exact same thing that happens when they go out there in a canoe or, or a rowboat or whatever. Somebody has to go patch to patch to patch and explicitly, um, treat it. It's got to be at the surface. Um, and the other part is, uh, uh, a good part of the hand harvesting, uh, are, um, plants that are in, um, oh, uh, pickerel weed or, or, uh, pond lilies. So you can't really go in and, um, uh, uh, take the, uh, uh, and, and just, uh, uh, if they're in the pond lilies, they're not even, uh, present in, uh, July. You don't see them until August and there are just patches, uh, here and there. So I can't see using an herbicide amongst, um, in the, uh, pond lily area, which, you know, pond lilies are native plants and deserve to be there. Okay. I, my concern is that we may not have enough money for both. And what I don't want to do is have, I want to prioritize the clear cast. We can get a contract for hand pulling, but I don't want to, you know, I assume it's going to be solved to, and they're going to get all the work anyways. I just don't want them to put too much effort into putting a contract together if we don't have the budget to do both of these things, or if we have to, I suppose if we have to pair back on the hand pulling, that's fine. Um, well, I, I would, I would leave it at the, uh, $9900 and, um, see what, uh, transpires and, um, okay. See if we have any, um, anything there at all. Uh, the, uh, uh, what, you know, that $9900 includes $1500 for an inspection and, uh, that's true report, uh, what, um, what the, um, herbicide side, uh, did was, um, incorporate, um, whatever they did into that, uh, report. Uh, um, so, uh, another point of view says that maybe it's, uh, just, uh, one, uh, contract hand pulling an herbicide. And, um, the problem is it's their organization, not ours. Uh, it's, uh, you know, different entities and different, uh, but, uh, that's, uh, that's really what it should amount to. Okay. So I like, I like that because you're right. There's, you know, you know, more than just however limited the hand harvesting may be. We do get the inspect, the survey, excuse me, on the reports. There's, there's value in that too. Okay. Then let's go ahead with the, the usual plan and let's, let's see how much it's going to amount to with the clear cast through the RFP process. So let's right now we'll keep both of those as action plans for the C's not heard bond. Fine. Uh, and then let me, uh, okay. So I think, okay, very good. Uh, so I'm going to go ahead and pursue then, uh, the RFP process. And I guess we should probably formalize it in a vote. So motion to, uh, to, uh, proceed with, uh, uh, RFPs for, uh, clear cast application on herd pond and an RFP if needed for hand harvesting, uh, of the water chestnuts on her pond. Okay. Well, I second that motion. Thank you. So this, this is not an approval to actually do it. Right. Well, this is, well, we, so the RFP, uh, that's a good point. Maybe I should amend that because I would like to, we definitely want to do the, the clear cast. Well, you know what, let me, let me back up because the RP is the first step, but yeah, the intent will be to do both of these things, but how much of each we do is to be determined based on what the, the, uh, proposal comes back for the clear cast. Um, and it may limit how much hand harvesting we do. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, another, uh, remember these are weeds and, um, uh, historically, um, um, as an example, if, uh, maybe you have a cold and high water spring, um, uh, there've been, um, uh, you know, some very, uh, very drastic changes season to season, uh, has to do with the germination of the plant. Uh, I'll bet, uh, right now, the, um, ice and herd pond is very, very thick. It looks like we have a, uh, winter that, um, is relentless and who knows what's going to happen in the spring, but it has happened that I've been out there in, uh, late June and found very few plants. And, uh, in fact, uh, uh, I think there was a season of 2013. So there's been pretty wide variation. The pulling still has to go on, uh, by the way, the hand pulling has to include disposal of the, uh, plants because otherwise we have a problem here. Uh, you know, Whalen no longer has a, uh, composting facility and so forth. Uh, so. All right. Let's make that notes.
So that disposal needs to be in the RFP. Yeah, it'll, it'll be. Yes. Yes. It will need to be in the RFP, but let me, but Steve, to your, to your question, you're right. This isn't just an RFP and we get them in like, oh, okay, let's not bother. We are certainly going to proceed with these things. We just need to go through the RFP process because the town, I think Kel, last time we had done this, gotten these contracts, well, certainly the hand pulling, there was a different, uh, assistant town administrator. Kelsey's been in there for a few years now. And so I know she, she, she wants to have these contracts go through her, you know, because she might put language in there that was different from what was in there before. So, and it's also a good practice, I think, to do it every couple of years, just in case there is somebody else out there who has the expertise and it shows due diligence on the town's town's part. Yeah. One, one other thing, Steve, go ahead. No, go ahead. Oh, Tom, Tom, go ahead. Oh, uh, one, uh, one other thing, uh, uh, uh, proviso for the, uh, hand pulling is that, uh, they actual, they, they built for the actual, uh, number of, uh, days used. And in the past, uh, there have been, uh, uh, sometimes not all days used. Uh, they only build us, uh, you know, bill it for actual days, uh, on the, uh, on the pond. And, uh, uh, uh, so, um, you know, with, uh, what, what is it now? Uh, seven days, hard to say. It'd be wonderful if, uh, they didn't need them all, but we can't tell. Okay. Yeah. The reason why, reason why I asked the question is that, um, and admittedly, I don't have a snapshot of where the budget is now for the year. And if all this exceeds the budget or it meets the budget, but leaves nothing for anything else, you know, we have the discretion to say, um, we're not going to do this or only to do part of it. We, we certainly do have that discretion. And my intent is not to spend all $30,000 on these herd pond activities. And then Steve, you're, you're paying out of pocket, or we're just not doing the chemistry testing. It's not coming out of my pocket. So no, that, that was not my intent. And I've never gotten clarity on the issue in years past when we had the larger budget, the money just rolled over because it wasn't, uh, it was just, it just rolled over. Uh, and I assume that's still the case, but I don't know how much there is to roll over from prior years. So, uh, certainly the intent is not to use everything on herd pond, leaving nothing for anything else. Um, so we will have that discretion. So let's say we go through this process. We go through the RFPs, we get these proposals and it's going to be, you know, say just about 10,000 for the hand harvesting. And now to do the clear cast is $20,000. Well, something's enough to give in that case. Either we, we, we do less hand harvesting, or maybe we just, we do less of the clear cast. We define a smaller zone of treatment. So, but we don't know until that comes through. And I don't recall when we got this, the court from solitude almost two years ago now for that 13 acre Southern end of herd pond that I have in mind that we would treat. I don't recall it being close to $20,000, but I don't know how much the expenses are going to be, you know, coming on two years later. So we'll go through the RFP. And if you have to scale back based on what those costs are, then we'll scale back. Cause yeah, I don't want to just, you know, clean them, use up resources. Well, back, back, back to the budget on this, uh, recent report on a Dudley pond. I noticed, uh, uh, it was not addressed to the surface water quality committee, but let's, let's stop there. Cause we're going to, we're going to get there in a bit. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about money. Uh, so, but, uh, the surface water quality committee paid for it and not the Dudley pond association. Okay. Well, so back to us, that should be correct. That was a good catch, uh, Tom, cause you're right, but let let's, we're going to cover Dudley pond. Yeah. Let's, let's stop there because we didn't go back. So let me, let me go back to the, the motion that I had made for her pond. So I, I, I phrased it as the RFP, but the RFP is we'd have to go through that anyway. So rather let me make the motion is to, uh, proceed with, uh, contracts for clear cast treatment and hand harvesting of water chestnut on her pond. Makes sense to me. I second that. So Tom seconded that. And then let's go around the room.
Yes. Okay. Tom Largy. I'm yes. Tom. All right. So I will take those actions. I'll work with the town on the RFPs and I'll reach out to, well, I guess we'll start with the RFPs first. Again, I don't want to reach out to Ken or Keith and get ahead of the game here. Uh, so clear cast and hand pulling on herd. Okay. Now let me just check. I think that's everything for herd pond. So I'll get going on those activities. Uh, herd pond reports. Okay, great. Now we are onto Dudley pond and Tom, I will turn the floor over to you and you can jump in with the, the topic you had just raised. So, uh, Oh, okay. Well, I, I, I merely, uh, raised, uh, I read the report and, uh, it merely, uh, was addressed to the, uh, I mean, as I said, addressed to the, uh, sorry to interrupt, but which report are you talking about? Oh, one, uh, one of the, one of the recent ones, uh, the one from the Gendron's arc, the arc report. Are you talking about the, um, aquatic report or the one that I wrote? No, no, the, uh, from the vendor. Okay. The, the Gendron's and, and Tom, I saw this afternoon, uh, that, uh, Ken Gendron did send that back to us. I assume he made the edits. I haven't had a chance to open it yet. So I had asked him, so Tom caught correctly that on the title page, it says for the Dudley Pond Association. So it was not for them. It's for the surface water quality committee. So hopefully that is there. And then I also, yeah, it did change. Okay. Very good. Uh, Steve, since you have it open, can you check on the first paragraph? Because the first paragraph said something about prepare for the Dudley Pond Association. I told him, it still says that. Jesus Christ. All right. Cause I, well, he did send his email. Let me know if there's anything else that's needed. I'll say, do you want to yell at them or should I? Um, I don't think you should. Oh, Steve. Yeah. Why don't you do that? But in my, in my email to him, I told him not only the title page, but he asked to correct that first paragraph in the intro to reflect surface water quality committee request in this report. So you can see what I wrote in my email and have him do that. It's such a simple correction. I can't be here. Okay. Thank you, Steve. Uh, but Tom, you're right. That's a good catch. I mean, this is, we, we are the, the body that requested the work and paid for the work. We should be recognized in the final deliverable, which is this report, which is still not totally correct. You know, when I, when I came to this meeting a couple of months ago and I talked about, I used the word renegades. This is what I was talking about. You know, the, the, there are, there are people around the pond who do very good work. I'm not criticizing them, but they are perceived by vendors like this one as the people who are running the show. And in fact, we are. Well, tell them, uh, somebody is to tell them flatly that they have to deal with us. And, um, uh, uh, you know, in terms of contracts of payments, just flatly, uh, that's, that's all there is to it. Uh, there's not a good reason to pay them. Otherwise, if somebody else has apparently, uh, requested, uh, the work and get some reports. But I would say, Steve, to your point that, you know, I, I wouldn't say Allison was the renegade in this case. She was just the local authority and Ken and Wendy dealt with her a lot. So they just, it's just the perception by the vendor. And, and we just need to change that. That's all. Actually, you know what, in that case, then let me, you know, to Tom's point, let me, let me write back to Ken. Let me make the point, you know, reiterating what, what Tom said that, you know, we're, you know, we contracted you guys, we paid you guys. You're working for us. We were working for us. So let me reply back to Ken. So I'm glad you put that out because I, I hadn't had a chance yet. And so two simple requests, only one of them was, was done. Well, back to, uh, Dudley Pond Association. And, um, however you characterize them, uh, renegades, uh, if, uh, they want some, if they want some work. I don't characterize the Dudley Pond Association as renegades. Yeah. There are individuals. Yeah. Uh, then, uh, um, just, uh, somehow it's got to be made clear that, uh, if, uh, some reports or works or other has to be done, it has to go through surface water quality. Uh, they can't call up the vendor. The vendor should, um, uh, deal with us, just plain deal with us. Otherwise, uh, the dime is on them. Um, I agree. Um, I don't, I don't have a problem with, you know, we, we're, we're talking about people you may not know, but, um, Alison is a real expert on what's going on in the pond. And I don't mind their dealing directly with Alison, but I do mind that they were put everything back to her and not us. Yeah. Well, that's got to, that's got to change. Uh, you know, as I've said several times in recent years, uh, maybe, uh, and Tom alluded to it, uh, maybe with the selectmen, but maybe, um, you know, rethinking surface water quality. I, uh, just, uh, uh, we're always doing that. We're, we're going to talk about that a bit later. I was before the select board last month, but we'll get to that later down the agenda. Um, so on this report, though, so Steve, I know that we were in, in previous meetings, going back to late last year, there was, oh, we don't need Priscilla core. And then it was, oh, maybe we need to do Priscilla core in 26. I didn't see that explicitly laid out in this report. And I'm not, we're not in a position now to do Priscilla core next year, but I didn't see that, you know, it might be more of a 27th thing. I trust you. I haven't read it yet. You know, I'm just back from my insane trip. So, um, I believe you. Okay. I mean, I, yeah. Cause that was, you know, we were sort of waiting for this report because they had been Ken and Wendy had been talking with Allison about this and Allison really was gonna be the ones whose information would drive whether we have to do Priscilla core sooner or later. So the report talks about, it doesn't say there was someone's growth of milfoil that it would be necessary, but it just talks in passive terms about monitoring. So I, I have no plans for this committee to do Priscilla core next year. We're gonna have our hands full with clear cast anyways. Right. So I think we'll be okay for this year. Um, you know, the issue, uh, over the past couple of years with Dudley pond and weeds has been less about milfoil, correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, and more about tape weed. Yes. And, and another weed that Allison talks about all the time. I don't remember the name of it. Oh, that's right. Cause now the thing with tape grass is now, because there's, there's so much less milfoil, the tape grass is now getting out of control. It really is. And that's where the, that's where the mechanical harvester comes in. So I guess it's, you, you wins, you just replace like any natural biological system. You replace one, you know, apex. Yep. Organism with another. Um, so yeah, good, good point that, you know, the, the tape grass is helping with the, in the sense of, with respect to milfoil, but now the tape grass is just like going gangbusters. Anyways. Yeah. So there won't be any plans for Priscilla core next year, but there should be an abundance of tape grass for the harvester to chew up. Well, uh, Tom, you keep saying next year. The harvester on my pontoon boat. Tom Logie. Oh, you keep saying next year. You mean this coming year. I do. You're right. For Priscilla core. It already is next year. Next year is 27. You're right. That's, uh, 26. Yeah. No, that mixture is 27. Yeah. I mean, I mean, 27. I mean, 26 is going to be a Priscilla core free for a year. You're right. Yeah. We're in, we're in 26. So this it's this year. It's not next year. That's what that report seemed to indicate that, uh, the milfoil is sparse or sparser than it has been. Yeah. Okay. Uh, and then just one last quick note on Dudley Pond, uh, tying in with Priscilla core. So, uh, Steve, we got the extension, uh, for, uh, the order of conditions on Dudley Pond from the conservation commission last December, November. Uh, and I've officially filed it with Middlesex. So Linda is aware of that. So we're in good shape through 2031 to do the things we've been doing on the pond. So that's, that's all done there. The only thing I, the only other thing I will raise is that, you know, I go out, there are two testing initiatives that we do. One is, um, I collect samples, send them to the lab, uh, and they get done. I write the report based on that. And the other thing that's in that report is what Ben Wetherill does with, uh, the meter, and he's not going to do it anymore, which means I'm going to have to do it. And he gave me a lot of data on how to do it, but I'm going to have to contact the company and make sure I can rent the equipment. I'm assuming that the cost of that is going to, the cost of that is going to be less than using Ben because I'm going to do it and you don't pay me. So, well, let me ask you this, you know, so we, we collect, we've been collecting all this data for 15 ish years, but the only thing we plot up is nitrogen, phosphorus, and chlorophyll, which is what's what we have from the lab. And yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I was gonna say shouldn't. Well, there's the second second depth. And what do I depth and yeah, we measure, we measure at three spots and the deep spot is at the surface and at the bottom. So what's been happening is that the measurements at the bottom have been basically discarded because they don't reflect the overall health of the pond. And I myself am questioning that. I mean, why are we doing this? Maybe we need to do less. I was, we can, let's have that be a continuing discussion. What I was going to say is as far as what we use for, for measuring trophic state, secchi depth, uh, chlorophyll and nitrogen and is the nitrogen and phosphorus anyways, but those are all the data points we use. So if we're only doing secchi depth, there shouldn't be any need for you to rent any kind of equipment and do because, because Ben was doing temperature and I forget whatever else, but we never use that stuff. I mean, they're just data points. Yeah. Why we should only be using, in my opinion, those, uh, uh, inputs that allow us to calculate trophic state. And that should be, that should be the scope of it. And you can, whatever heights we do it at, but just those four things, secchi, phosphorus, nitrogen, chlorophyll. And that should be it, which, which I can do myself. I, I don't need a meter to do that. Right. You're just collecting the water and it goes off to the lab. Right. And the secchi, you can, yeah, the secchi, you can just do yourself. So let's, let's, you know, you, you, I don't know how often you see Mike Lowry. You can get his thoughts on that, but I think we're collecting a lot of data, but we're only using a small subset. And I know it's not breaking the bank, but why even, you know, especially if you're gonna have to learn to use equipment or somebody, whether it's, if it's not you, to me, that's a burden that makes it harder to do. Well, yeah. I mean, we do all that. We get those measurements, we report on them, but you're right. If we're just looking at traffic state, none of that goes in there. That makes huge sense to me. The, you know, you may be aware, Steve, that years ago we invested in some meters and such, which are apparently obsolete. They're around somewhere. The supplies were expensive, maybe can't be obtained and on and on. So I, I, I think it's been wonderful to have these reports, these in-depth reports, but maybe not every year, maybe every five years, come back and do some kind of something that's really in-depth because year after year, good reports. That's, that's all there is to it. And the Secchi means something to me. I, I think that's, that's, that's a biggie year to year. That kind of, yeah. I mean, the Secchi depth was really important last year because the, the water was rather cloudy. And that resulted in the tape grass becoming a problem much later in the season. So, um, that's an important metric, but I have a disc that does that. So that's easy. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, so the next one wouldn't be until the spring. So we can, we can touch on this again, but I would, I would say, and Steve, in the meantime, you can see what, what Lowry thinks, but to me, you know, you'll, you're doing it now, but it'll be somebody else. I think if somebody has to rent equipment and learn how to do this, it's going to be a disincentive to doing it. And we never use that stuff. And then we might not even get the Secchi depth. So if it's a Secchi and the things the lab does, to me, that is the most straightforward path forward because that's the only, the only data we use. I don't think anybody looks at the temperature change or the DO. I mean, I would just, or, you know, we can do it infrequently if people want to have some of that, but I think for the routine stuff, let's just get the four inputs that we rely on more than anything else. I think that makes sense. Okay, great. I also don't want to do it. I can understand. I don't mind doing it, but I have to, it's a lot to learn. It's a lot to learn. And you've got to go get this equipment. I don't know where it is. You've got to take care of it. You're in charge of it. It's, it's kind of a hassle. And that's, that's, that's always, always an issue. And who would you hand it over to? Yeah. You might say herd pond. All of the monster is pulling weeds in my boat.
Oh, well. Okay. All right. So yeah, let's, as we get closer to spring, let's, let's talk about that. Cause I think that, that makes sense. And that's to make it easier to, to manage. Um, all right. So the, the last thing I had on here, um, or actually before we, let's check my agenda. Like, okay, no, let's go. If you can excuse me for a minute, uh, Tom, I'll, I'll rejoin you in one minute. Okay.
All right.
We cannot conduct official business until Tom gets back. We're no longer recording. I'll keep my mouth shut. So how often do you, do you contribute to the, the Wayland post? Well, I've been doing it, um, pretty regularly, but again, they kind of wrote me into doing arts and music and I love music. I, you know, I obviously do a lot of that, but I knew nothing about art, but I've been, what I started to do was a series on artists that are members of arts Wayland. Oh, I'm going to do another one for the next issue. But I, I already told the editors, look, I want to branch out because, you know, I, I'll, I'll help you out here, but I really want to do other things. I'm on, you know, two town committees. I'm on the DPA. Um, um, I'm a Wayland democratic, a lot of things that can write about. So there'll be more. Okay. But Carol's very involved. I mean, I can understand why she doesn't have time for this. Yeah. I know this, this often got in the way that's when that's, that's why it's not meeting on Monday nights. Cause that's when the select board meets.
I, I got into a bit of a riff with the editor that I'm working with on, on the post because she, on two occasions, they edited what I wrote and didn't let me review the final copy copy. And both of those articles had errors. So I said, look, from now on, if I give you something, you got to send it back to me before you publish it.
And they agreed to that. We'll see.
Tom's back. Yeah, I'm back. Okay. There you are. All right. Um, so the next item on thirds of this committee tonight is named Tom. Oh, how do you like that? You know, it has something to do with age. If we were all 20 years old, it wouldn't, or 30, it wouldn't, uh, would not be that way. Uh, Tom's Tom's a young guy. The, the only thing different here is the only difference here is it's two Toms and a Steve. It's normally two Toms and a Carol. So it's, uh, anyways, uh, the next topic on the agenda. So, and Tom, you had alluded to this. We've had this discussion before, you know, Dudley Pond is kind of under control of DPW and they've got their DPA volunteers. Um, herd pond is really the main, the main focus of this, uh, you know, and so we're the surface water quality committee. If we're really the herd pond and Dudley pond kind of committee, you know, what does the future look like? So Carol Martin asked me to go before the select board on January 20th. And I was ready to give, they have all the committee chairs go before the select board and talk about what the committee has done over the past year, what activities are coming up. And I did that. I told them about clear cast and about the water chemistry testing and weed management and so on and so forth. But then they, then they asked about, um, you know, the budget for next year. Um, but when they, what they wanted to talk about too, is, you know, what is like the, the future of this committee? And they, there are a lot of committees that report through the select board. So it's just one more, um, one more, uh, series of bodies the select board has to engage with. And so they, they, they raised the question of, you know, would the surface water quality committee be better off being consolidated under conservation, for example? Um, and it didn't, you know, they were just sort of raising the idea, sort of putting a, raising the flag on this. And, you know, I told them, well, that's, that's fine in principle, but things like Herd Pond, there's, there's no constituency for Herd Pond. If it's under the conservation commission, they're not going to have that foremost in mind. You know, there's, yes, it might be a lot to have one committee that focuses on that meeting all year round. And, you know, is that, is that just by having a committee for that? Um, at the same time, if it's under conservation, this committee would, would likely disband. And then who's keeping eyes on Herd Pond? Who's involved when, uh, new equipment or a procella core treatment needs to happen on, on Dudley Pond. So, uh, I just bring that up to, to make the point that, you know, we've talked and Tom Largy, you've made the point too, about what the future of this committee might look like. Um, the select board is giving it, giving it at least some thought and it has raised the question. So, you know, there wasn't any immediate action to shut the committee down or, or, or bring us under some other auspice. Um, so I just wanted to raise, raise awareness. I mean, I can see kind of the logic to it. Um, but if this committee, if this dedicated committee isn't there, then I can, I can see some really important things falling from the cracks. And again, for me, the example is Herd Pond, right? If that, if that, if there's not this committee and there's nobody keeping an eye on the hand pulling and the clear cast, you know, does that, does Herd Pond become what Dudley Pond was 20, 30 years ago, where it's just becoming this eutrophic swamp-like thing? So, um, there's no decision made, there's no plan, but just that the select board is thinking about minimizing the number of committees that report to them. And so we, we were one committee that came to mind in that context. So, um, just, just raising awareness to the, the, the two of you that they're, you know, their, their thoughts are kind of going that direction too. What is the future of the surface water quality committee? Well, um, you know, other towns, um, uh, manage water bodies, uh, through the conservation commission, um, uh, Framingham does, Concord does, I think Lincoln does, um, uh, you know, Sudbury, um, has something, uh, uh, an association, Hop Brook association, which, uh, maybe so there's a, um, series of, uh, ponds on, uh, Hop Brook starting, uh, you know, as an example, Hager Pond, on the, you know, the wayside in, uh, Mill Pond and, uh, several more ponds. So, um, but that, that, uh, that seems to work, uh, but, uh, I would think, um, that there would have to be some kind of direction to the conservation commission. I'm not certain how easily conservation commissions are directed by the, uh, by the selectmen. Maybe it's more state regulations and things like that. I don't know. Uh, but other towns do it. There's, um, no doubt, uh, no doubt of that. Uh, uh, and later on, I'm going to bring up, uh, uh, Pine Brook. I've got a couple of, uh, things to mention on Pine Brook, which, uh, uh, more or less our conservation commission, uh, you know, right away. We, so, uh, but, uh, you know, when we're through with this, I'll, I'll mention some of that. Okay. Um, so Steve, unless you have any comments, I mean, I just wanted to raise the awareness of that meeting with the select board and some of their thinking along the lines of the future of this committee. Again, no action plan, but that's kind of their, their thinking along the lines of points that Tom has made in prior meetings. Steve, you're muted. I can't hear you. Steve, you're on mute. Uh, Lynn came down and I was talking to her. So is the goal to minimize the number of committees that report to the board of selectmen? That, that might, the, the larger, the large, you know, that's what I inferred. They didn't, they didn't come out and say, you know, we're looking to minimize the number of committees reporting because all these advisory committees report through the select boards. I'm sure they want to minimize that. And I don't know how many there are in total. That was my, my inference. And, and, you know, we're a committee with a pretty limited mandate that could possibly be managed under some other authority. My, my view is that this committee cannot disappear for the reasons we talked about. And if, you know, if it goes to conservation, maybe that makes sense. I mean, it would make sense, but I know for my time on ConCom, they're, they're not, they're, they're not going to be thinking proactively around these ponds because they're, they get so much stuff that just comes to them from developers and homeowners, residents. There's no bandwidth to think about, oh, it's, hey, it's spring's coming up. We got a plan for a herd pond management. So I can see it getting lost. Any more lost than it is with the selectmen? Well, no, but ConCom doesn't report through the select board, right? ConCom is its own entity. So if we wanted to do the things we talked about with Herd Pond, that would be part of ConCom's budget and the Conservation Commission would manage that. I had this idea that just popped into my head. Maybe we should report to the DPW. Well, I mean, that's, I mean, that's, could conceivably be an option too, but again, there's, but I mean, well, you know, cause they're, they're action oriented. They, you know, get things done. Yeah. I mean, I suppose that could be a mechanism, right? But let's, let's go through the hypothetical of it's time for a weed management at Herd Pond. I mean, those guys, they're, they're action oriented, but they've got their equipment. They're going on site to do stuff. The Herd Pond had harvesting is us getting a contract and then Solitude goes out there and pull some weeds out of the pond. So it might fall outside their, their scope, you know, but let's, again, that's just what the select board is thinking. There's no immediate action, but I think they're looking to, to winnow down some of these advisory committees. Okay. I think we, you know, we need to keep doing the work that's being done and that can't get lost. I mean, from my perspective, let's, let's say the, the Service Water Quality Committee went away. I mean, I'm so used to these annual activities we take for Dudley and Herd in particular. I would go before the concom, you know, this time of the year and say, hey guys, it's time to think about Herd Pond contracting, just to plant the seed in their head and they can go ahead and do it. Yeah. You know, so I, but, you know. Well, if they were budgeted for it. Well, but they would be budgeted for it, right? If we, if our $30,000. Yeah, if they were budgeted for it, then I, I think they have to do it. And interested citizens might ask why they didn't do it if they were, if they got the monies in the budget. And if, so that's, that, you know, the, uh, and I don't know that, uh, much would have to be done at the meetings that would, uh, have to go back to Linda Hanson and her staff. Yes. And, um, uh, what does she have? A couple of, couple of people on her staff. Uh, uh, I think she's just got one person. I mean, when I was there, there was one person. There's, there was Emma, there was a woman, Emily. And then she has a land manager. Oh, what's his name? Oh yeah. I don't know who it is now. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, anyways, just, just some, some, some thoughts on what the select board is thinking. There's nothing, there's no peril yet to this committee, but we'll, we'll see how things develop. Um, okay. So just want to raise that point, uh, before Tom, before we get to your point about Pinebrook, I did have on the, uh, agenda, Carol was talking about Snakebrook last time, and there's good, there are going to be repairs to Snakebrook dam at some point. And Carol had raised the point of, we had been talking about water chemistry testing and she would bring up what about water chemistry testing on these other bodies. And she was interested in the idea of doing, uh, water chemistry testing downstream of where the dam repairs are going to be because you want to get a baseline reading of phosphorus and nitrogen. So when they do the repair work, if nutrients wash down, is it higher afterwards? And that way, if there were any kind of algae blooms or plant blooms, we'd have some data points. Um, and there was some back and forth. We weren't quite sure if it was worth doing. We weren't sure if we could budget it. Um, I, I'm going to be, you know, completely mercenary here. I mean, Carol's not on the committee. So I, you know, she was going to be the one to volunteer to do it. I wasn't going to. So I'm, I'm proposing that we, that we not do it because we don't have the people to go out there and collect those samples. Yeah. Well, uh, yeah. As I commented, uh, I know, uh, Carol was, um, uh, uh, uh, very interested. You might say hot on several, uh, subjects. Uh, one, you know, as an example, um, the, uh, cove, uh, by the town beach where the, um, the, uh, the racing shells are launched as a little launch dock there and it's weedy and it's, and so forth and so on. From my, uh, you know, uh, from my perspective, it's, uh, kind of nice on Lake which, uh, is very much, uh, a similar kind of, uh, water body to have a cove that's a weedy and shallow that the sunfish love. And, um, uh, it, uh, it's not a bad habitat for, uh, Snakebrook. Um, uh, one thing I did not mention, I, I, uh, I, I kind of jumped on, uh, uh, Carol. She'd spent a long time on that last time around, but, uh, uh, uh, the issue with Snakebrook is that, um, it's immediately, uh, uh, uh, the, uh, impoundment, the, uh, the, the reservoir is, uh, fed by a couple of streams that, um, are heavily used by dog walkers. And when I say heavily used, uh, all you have to do, uh, is drive down Rice Road by Hamlin Woods and there'll be three, four, five, six. Sometimes every parking space is taken and they're all dog walkers. I know that because, um, you know, in the springtime from time to time, I fished a pond and, and I, I have a hard time, uh, finding a place to park and, uh, it's just a constant stream of, uh, down, uh, dog walkers. So who knows what, uh, runs into the pond because, uh, I'm very certain that not every one of them has a plastic bag with, uh, uh, you know, with whatever. I mean, uh, it's, uh, but, you know, again, uh, Snakebrook, um, there is a dam, there's downstream, um, and then there's kind of a long inlet, um, leading into, um, uh, the, uh, opening between the Route 30 and the Mass Pike. And that is, um, from a certain point of view, it's, uh, God awful up there. It's, um, trees down and it's silted in and, uh, but from another point of view, it's turtle heaven. Uh, uh, I mean, it's heaven for turtles up there. There is, there may be, uh, room for that, uh, kind of environment and, and Wayland. Uh, so anyway. All right. Well, anyways, uh, so yeah, so I, I, I take your point. So, uh, anyways, I, I, you know, uh, we're not going to do anything with, with, uh, Snakebrook and, and Tommy made the point that it's, you know, um, yeah. So we'll, we'll just let that, let that go. Um, and I will use that as the, uh, that was the last official agenda item. And there's now there's topics not anticipated, but Tom, do you want to give an update on Pinebrook? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, two things. Um, one, uh, you had, um, sent me, um, a text or a note, uh, a few weeks ago having to do with a, uh, CONCOM, uh, uh, item on, uh, Pinebrook. Yes. And, uh, I talked to, uh, Emily. I, uh, also talked to, I think a bit to Linda on that. And what it amounts to is, uh, Pinebrook is, uh, classified as a, um, cold water stream. And that's a special classification. And that means that, um, native brook trout live there and thrive there as they have for about the last 10,000 years. And, uh, so Pinebrook, uh, uh, uh, if you were to look at a Google map of Pinebrook, uh, and then you would see that, um, there are a couple of branches. One rises in the town of Weston, uh, one, uh, rises actually, uh, the pond off of, uh, uh, mainstone, um, off of Rice Road. And, um, um, it's pretty well protected and, um, it's, um, an excellent environment for, uh, brick trout. And there, uh, there are some videos, uh, done by a fellow Scott Sweeney who has the, um, clock shop, uh, the, the light, the lighting repair shop, uh, down in, uh, on, uh, uh, on Plain Street. And, um, uh, so it's a cold water stream because there are, um, excellent springs along the stream so that when it's 99 degrees in August, uh, there are spring holes here and there. And the brook trout, uh, go through, uh, go there as a, uh, kind of a refugio. The problem is that apparently off of, uh, I guess it's called Covered Bridge Road. And I don't know the, I haven't been in there exactly, but, uh, some kind of unauthorized, uh, work has been done that, um, has, um, impeded the brook in some form. Now I, I talked to, with Emily about it a couple of times. It's not too clear to me, um, what was done, but it, it has been an agenda item with the, uh, with, uh, Conservation Commission. And I, uh, otherwise I simply, uh, uh, I don't know more than that. And, uh, perhaps, uh, I'll give, uh, I'll give her a call and, uh, see if we can get an update on that. But, um, whether it's, um, somebody, uh, digging with power equipment that's destroyed a spring, I don't know what exactly. Is this related? So is this Pinebrook behind, uh, where Mahoney's used to be? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's the same Pinebrook. But, uh, upstream, um, one of the branches is, uh, off of Rice Road is a Covered Bridge Road, which, uh, has some, uh, very expensive condominium type, uh, houses and such there. And, uh, apparently it's some work off of that, uh, road. So that's above where, uh, Mahoney's is. Okay. So, and this is blocked? So, well, there's some kind of blockage. She, um, was not able to tell me what. And, uh, uh, obviously, um, in the wintertime, it's kind of hard to go in there and see for yourself and who, you know, it's, it's kind of tough to get in there. It's private land to boot, but. But is it backing up? Is there now like a, uh, like a, like a dam almost? She, she was uncertain. I, I, I just couldn't get it. She hasn't seen it. She hasn't seen it. Uh, so perhaps I'll, um, give, uh, Linda another call on that. Or you could as well, but, uh. Okay. I mean, this is pretty concerning. I, your emails have gone back a few months now. So there's been some kind of construction. Nobody knows anything about the construction. You know, it was an item on the meeting, but I, I, I haven't, um, uh, perhaps I should look at the, uh, I'm not in the habit of looking at the minutes of CONCOM meetings to see what the resolution was. Okay. I'll follow up on that too. Okay. Well, the other item is, um, having to do with Pinebrook at Pinebrook Road, there was a culvert that was repaired about 10 years ago there. And, um, so at that time, I, I talked to Linda about that and, um, uh, culverts, uh, are, are, are an issue, uh, when it comes to, uh, wildlife, uh, fish and actually, um, lots of other things. So as an example, out in the state of Washington, there are billions being spent on, uh, culverts, um, and, uh, that has more to do with, um, salmon runs and things like that. You can have, uh, big fish coming up, uh, small streams. Uh, it happens. Uh, it's, uh, it's an intro. I've seen it. It's an interesting phenomenon, but, um, in the case of, uh, Pinebrook, uh, uh, the question, uh, for me, uh, always has been whether the, uh, the, uh, the culvert that was put in was adequate for, uh, the movement of brook trout above and below. So as an example, at the, uh, YMCA camp, which is down below, uh, uh, uh, I've observed brook trout down there. It's, uh, uh, and there are brook trout above, let's say around Mahoney's and other places. So, um, about two or three months ago, I went to a trout unlimited, uh, uh, meeting where they had somebody, um, something called, uh, I think it's a division of reclamation and she gave a talk and they have to do with, uh, culverts and also dam removal. And, um, so, um, I, uh, contacted her afterwards and, um, had somebody come out to look at the, uh, culvert on, uh, Pinebrook on, on Pinebrook road. And, um, her opinion was that, um, the culvert was, um, not up to, uh, standards for the, uh, free movement of, uh, fish, uh, uh, down below and above. So then I asked her for an estimate, uh, and she said, well, most, um, most, uh, a lot of repairs like this can run a million dollars. Whoa, that's a lot of money, uh, further, but, um, but then she said, well, there are grants. And, uh, so this, uh, division of reclamation has some monies for grants. Now I'm concerned about the, uh, trout and pine brook, but, um, I'm, uh, not concerned enough that I want to personally get into, uh, a project of, uh, this ilk, um, grants, and this would have to go through DPW and on and on. So, uh, that's, that's where it's left. Um, I mean, the, uh, the culvert was repaired 10 or 11 years ago. It may not be up to spec. Uh, in my opinion, there are, um, healthy populations of brook trout, which are native. They've been there for 10,000 years, but, uh, above and below how much movement there is, is hard to say. I also, uh, mentioned Hayward brook, which is a very tiny brook. Um, it, uh, on the other side of route 20, it rises in the, uh, Western town forest. And, uh, oh, there are some, uh, roads, uh, there's Lee's farm market. And behind that, there, there are a number of roads and the pine brook, uh, borders all of, uh, Hayward brook borders all of that. And, um, and then comes some, and I'm not certain where under route 20 to, uh, uh, uh, join pine brook, but Hayward brook, uh, uh, also is known to have brook trout. So Emily said, and I didn't know that, uh, conservation does that. She said, oh yes, Hayward brook is also mentioned as a, uh, cold water brook. And there is, uh, so there's some kind of listing. So cold water is, uh, important, uh, for brook trout. I'm not certain that snake brook, uh, coming from the reservoir would be listed as a, uh, snow, uh, as a cold water brook, but pine brook and, um, and Hayward are, well, that's, that's about where it stands. Um, I, I, I think it's, um, an interesting issue. It's something that, um, uh, conservationists handling, um, whether the culvert, uh, should or should not be replaced, uh, I think is a big, big question that, um, I'm not certain that surface water quality wants to take it on in the near future. When you, when you mentioned Emily, this is, this is Emily in the, in the conservation office. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So now, uh, so to get me up to speed. So being designated as a cold water brook, that, that just makes it more, that's favorable from a grant perspective or getting money to do some kind of a project. Is that a designation? It could be, but, uh, that means it's got a special status. Um, you know, there, there are lots of brooks and, and brooks, uh, go by shopping centers and big developments and, and, uh, lots of brooks are, are not very, uh, uh, not very favorable for fish populations. They just aren't because of where they are and what happens. Those two brooks, uh, are, you know, go through somewhat remote areas and are, um, excellent for, uh, native brook trout. Now there aren't that many. There's, uh, something called trout brook and, uh, Sudbury, something called the women's, uh, federated forest. Anybody ever hear of that? No. Well, uh, off of Dutton road and, uh, Sudbury, there's a large tract and, uh, it may not be the women's federated forest. It's, uh, if you go by there, you see a sign. It may have been signed over, but a long time ago, maybe, uh, 75 or a hundred or more years ago, somebody gave a lot, a large area of land to the women's federation, whatever it is. And, um, so it's open land and it's, it's pristine and it goes back into Marlborough. There's something, um, called, uh, it's kind of a sand barons in, uh, Marlborough also in, uh, uh, uh, Eastern part of Marlborough and interesting, um, and I haven't been there for many, many years, um, but, uh, interesting ecology and, uh, trout brook flows out of that also has a, uh, population of native brook trout. And as, uh, the, the, the organization called OARS, OARS Three Rivers, which has to do, you know, is interested in water quality and, and, uh, just see, uh, water bodies that, uh, constitute the, uh, Concord River drainage, acid, Sudbury River. So they did some work on that. And, uh, interestingly, they, uh, there were a couple of branches to that brook and they, uh, but one branch, um, you know, very low water may just about dry up. And, um, so, uh, but, uh, they did actually DNA testing on fish from the two branches and they found that, um, these fish moved down and up into the other branch when, um, uh, water conditions were poor. Now, when we first moved here over 50 years ago, I was exploring all over the place. So off of Dutton Road, uh, Hop Brook, um, runs, um, under, uh, Dutton Road, there's a dam and there's a series of upstream ponds and, and, uh, and, uh, uh, at the very head of Hop Brook is, uh, the easterly, um, water treatment plant of the town of, uh, Marlboro. And that, uh, flows into, um, uh, what's called, uh, Hager Pond. So if you've ever, uh, driven, uh, West on Route 20 in Marlboro, then you'll come to a pond on the, uh, there's a kind of a, uh, uh, uh, candy store there and there's a pond and it's loaded with, um, ducks and geese and swans. That's Hager Pond. And it flows down through the, uh, mill pond at, uh, the Wayside Inn and then another large pond and then several more ponds. And the Hop Brook Association has been active on those ponds. As an example, Sterns Mill Pond off of Dutton Road. They've also, uh, I ran into a fellow who was, uh, running a drone up there to, uh, track, uh, water trust sets. And they've also been using, uh, clear casts there. But I would not, uh, characterize, uh, Hop Brook as a, uh, cold water stream. Not with all those ponds and all those nutrients. Nevertheless, many, many years ago, I caught some native Brook Trout there, which must have dropped down from Hop Brook, uh, from Trout Brook into a Hop Brook. And, um, then as, uh, conditions deteriorate, go back up into there. So that's, uh, just, uh, kind of an, an interesting, but probably an important part of what we have in Metro West. There are, there are only several of those streams around and a couple of them are in Wayland. So is there some action for this committee? No, I don't know that the, uh, I'm, uh, I'm personally, um, not ready to, uh, start pushing, uh, for a million dollar, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, project, uh, on the, on the culvert. Uh, the, uh, the fact that, uh, there has been some kind of impact that, uh, Conservation Commission has work, have been working on. I think we should be interested in that. Um, and, uh, that's, that's about it. Tom, I was going to ask you, uh, so to repair it, or it was repaired 10 or so years ago at the cost of around $10,000. How long has that culvert been there? I'm just curious. Well, the culvert's been there for many years. It was repaired. It's actually two culverts. And, and what it has to do with is, um, uh, the, uh, the drop of, um, the water off of the, uh, culvert, uh, into the stream below. And, uh, if, uh, you may have seen, uh, uh, photos or movies of salmon leaping up from, uh, waterfalls and things like that. And, uh, it's got to be a particular kind of, uh, uh, there has to be some kind of plunge pool. Turns out a fish in order to jump over even a foot of water has got to be able to propel itself somehow. There's got to be some kind of deep water there. It's, it's, uh, a complex thing. Uh, I, uh, the million, uh, astounds me. I'm not, uh, there must be some, some other way of doing it. Yeah. Uh, but anyway, I'm reporting to the committee on other water and Weyland and some issues. That's all there is to it. Well, thanks Tom. I've seen those communications you've had with, with con come around Pinebrook. So I'll, I'll keep an eye on those. Uh, I'm, I'm particularly, you know, I'm kind of disturbed about this blockage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But thank you for, for raising the awareness. Uh, that was the last item on the agenda. And, uh, I'd like to plan for our next meeting date. Now, if we go by the Steve, I know you're the fourth of Wednesday, but I don't want to meet again in February. There's not gonna be any updates. Um, right. I have the calendar here for March and Steve, if you're available in early March, Steve, that would be good. That'd be about a month from now, but all right, let me check, um, March. Otherwise it would be March 25th, which is the fourth Wednesday, but I'd like to meet before that. Don't do Wednesdays. Actually, um, my Wednesday commitment on the fourth is not there. Can we lock in March 4th then for the next meeting? Good luck in March 4th. Okay. Tom, how does March 4th look for you? You know, as a retired guy, until springtime comes and I'm maybe off on some trips, um, I'm, I'm free, free as can be. Okay. Well, I want to, I want to be respectful, not just assume you'll be free. So if you're retired, I'm looking at it right now. I brought up my calendar on my, on my phone here. Excellent. Okay. Perfect. Thanks guys. Uh, all right. Let's, let's wrap up at eight 25. I make them up. I make a motion to adjourn at eight 25 PM. Second. Okay. Yeah. All right. Uh, and then I, I vote I to adjourn. Tom Largy. I did grow an eye. Awesome. All right. Thanks guys. Enjoy the rest of winter. Well,