July 8, 2026 – Housing Partnership – Video & Transcript

July 8, 2026 - Housing Partnership

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7.03. That is not public, so we'll go to the minutes of February 4th. Are there any additions or corrections? I think I have a few thoughts on that. The second full paragraph that Dana shared, in the middle, the Attorney General's office is tracking adoption of bylaws and enablement legislation and the majority of the municipalities. I'm not sure if it's tracking adoption levels and enablement. Is Stradaki in the majority of municipalities? Hi, Jim. Good evening. Sorry I'm late, everybody. I'm not sure if you're a member. They're not so late. You just come in. I got to see the planning board. No, it was the majority of municipalities are under compliance. I'm sorry, which minutes are you looking at? So, February 4th, Dana? February 4th, yeah. Janelle, would you do the note-taker on that? I was. So, could you read the correction on that? Well, the record... The sentence should read, the Attorney General's office is tracking adoption of bylaws and enabling legislation. Semi-colon? Should be in instead of and in the majority. I think the point remains that the majority of the municipalities had actually enacted the legislation, that they were in compliance. So, they're not tracking in the majority. They're tracking all of them. So, that should be said... If I was in legislation, comma, the majority of... How about Semi-colon, the majority of municipalities are... Including White House. Including White House. Including White House. There are too many people talking at one time. Yes. Pardon? Janelle, are you going to make the corrections, or shall I? She just stated the correction. Well, but if I'm... I may... I need to know... I can do it, Mary. I can do it, Mary. I can do it. Oh, you'll make the correction. No. I'd like... Well, if you want me to... Well, I can make it, but I need to know what it is. I think the wording is, the Attorney General's Office is tracking adoption of bylaws and enabling legislation semi-colon. Yes. The majority of municipalities are in compliance, including White House. Perfect. Okay. In the next paragraph, we need to say someplace that many of these programs are dependent on income levels or means-tested or something. I don't think you say anything about the fact that these are not open to everybody. And I think... So, let's see where we can put that. I assume that's fine, because they are mostly means-tested programs. So, perhaps F to 50K? Yeah. I was going to say where it says the 0% deferred home modification loans. Can be up to 50K. Can be up to 50K for qualifying. Well, I think most of the above for qualifying. I think virtually everything is for qualifying households. But the last sentence about the feasibility assessments doesn't have anything to do with means? Um, right. Because maybe we should just put that last sentence into another paragraph and then after 50K just say all of the above. Well, I believe, I didn't go back to check Jim, I believe all of the above. What if we go to the second sentence, where it says the home application loan program of mass housing, formerly known as, is offering ADU construction loans up to 250K for detached, up to 150K for attached, and then say, um, that, um, all of these, all financing programs are subject to, um, eligibility. If you don't think the last one of the... It should be after the 50K, I think. You think after the 50K? Yeah, that's right. That's right. All these programs are subject, these programs are subject to... Income. Income eligibility. Income eligibility. Income eligibility. I think that covers it. And then continue with the Mass Housing Partnership. I don't think that's an income eligibility. You don't think it's what? No, the feasibility assessments, I think, was to try to incentivize everybody to... I'm sorry for the 10 hours. All these programs, do you see an error, are subject to income eligibility. Sorry about this, but I actually read these this afternoon. Okay, in the last paragraph, which says Dana presented. Yeah. Examples is misspelled. But you might also say other examples, since the line immediately above is an example of it. Okay. And then, do you get that, Mary? Yeah. Other examples? Dana presented other examples and correct the spelling? Yeah. And then, at the bottom of that paragraph, Ed Vermont is considering an owner tax... An owner tax evasion, I think. An owner tax evasion. Okay. And then, does anybody on the next page, does anybody remember Kristen's last name? I do not. Everybody else was identified, like, that was Lynn who was identified, but I don't know who Kristen was. It started with a G, and I think it was a French name, like, Goudreau or something. Is that a striker? Oh yeah, it's on the first paragraph. G-E-C-H-A-R-D. G-E-Y-C-H-A-R-D. G-E-Y-C-H-A-R-D. That's close. G-E-Y-C-H-A-R-D. That's close. She's from the Regional Housing Services Office, the director. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good. Where was that? The first paragraph. Good, good, good, good, good. Thank you, Jennifer. You're welcome. Thank you. It helps that I just read it about half an hour ago. Okay. It helps also that you're a lawyer and will look through those details. In conclusion, home is key. So I thought you could end that. In conclusion, Dana advised that pairing ADU creation with home education is key, period. And then a new sentence, becoming a landlord requires knowing both your rights. I thought that, you know, the... Yeah. Just make it simple. Just delete the words even as even with family members. Yeah. Just delete those words, just say, becoming a landlord. Yeah. I did that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Can I make sure I have the last... Yes. Sure. Period after key. And I wanted to thank whoever prepared the minutes for preparing. Dana. Excellent. Thank you. I'm trying to keep her language as much as... That was a lot... That was a lot to summarize. It was a lot to summarize. It was a lot to summarize. You did a very good job. I appreciate it. You definitely lost the lottery on that one. Thank you, Mary. Thank you, Mary. Do you have a motion on this, or do you want to be both failed? One at a time. So I move to accept the minutes of February 4th as corrected. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Unanimous. Did somebody second it? Yes. Yes. Thank you. No problem. I got to get that right. And the minutes of March 5th. I have problems with the last full paragraph. Where it starts, Rachel Bratt responded. The proper initials are HPP, not HHP. Right. So there's one, two, three, I think five HHPs that should be changed to HPP. And then I have point is the fifth to the bottom line where it says, and the public to support the contractor assess and identify. There should be a comma after contractor before assess and identify. Any other corrections or additions? So just one is a correction. On the first page, Dana Lewinger's name, it's L-E capital W-I-N-T-E-R, Dana. I mean, so at the bottom of the first page, that big paragraph at the bottom, Ms. Flavinta. Fourth line. Fourth line. Ms. Flavinta. I'll spell it correctly. Yeah. It's just the W isn't capitalized. Any others? Excellent. In a motion? Moved. Second. Second. Was that your no? Opposed? Oh, aye. Aye. No, not opposed. No. You're not opposed. No, no, no. No, I'm in opposition. No, you're not opposed. On all four of those minutes. I'm sorry for those minutes that I did. It seemed so long ago. It was so long ago. All right, keep up there now. Let me check. Oh, it's Rachel. So, the last I heard from the man from the Planning Office for Urban Affairs, his name is Philip was that now construction is late summer, early fall. So, I emailed, that was from about a month, a month and a half ago that I sent him an email. But, of course, I forgot to do that again until today, so I don't have an updated date if he didn't get back to me today. But, I'm still assuming it's late summer, early fall or sometime in the fall or hopefully before the ground freezes. Do you know if there were any particular problems? No. I don't think there were any problems. I think it was the nature of the beast. He didn't say there were any problems. Contractors lined up. Whatever it is. I didn't hear that there were problems. He hasn't communicated problems. And, I did ask, over a month ago, I did ask Ren, the priest of the Good Shepherd, how progress was coming along. And, I thought that he had said that the financing was delayed. Oh. Yeah, that's what I remember, too, actually. But, it sounded as though they were going to sort it out. Yeah. I haven't heard that. I mean, I hadn't heard that. Maybe he doesn't want to tell me. I think there's such an illusion. Yeah. And, I remember I said, I thought the diocese, you know, had that all lined up. And, since they already want a clone of the project, that's going to be okay, right? You know what's going on? Pulling. That's what the diocese said. It's the Planning Office of Urban Affairs that lines it up. Because, the diocese, all they have to do, and I believe, is agree to it. They don't, I think, it's the Office of Planning Urban Affairs that does all of the heavy-duty lifting, the financing, getting a contractor working with all of the funding agencies, is the Planning Office, the non-profit arm of the archdiocese. They basically are a state non-profit working on behalf of the archdiocese. But, you know, my understanding is they met, again, with, as a new archbishop, I guess. I hope I have that correct. I'm not sure about that. I think he's the archbishop of Boston. And they did, he's a new person. I think that's where I heard that there was. And that they had a meeting with him back in April because they wanted to bring him up to speed. I talked to them afterwards to make sure he was on board. Apparently he was good with that. So, I hope I got his, I believe he was, is the archbishop of Boston. So, as far as I know, there are no big problems. It's just, it's just, it takes the time it takes. It takes the time it takes. They have not come to the house in trust yet. Okay. To get the money from the trust. Okay. So, of course, we haven't had a meeting on the long term here. But, you know, that's such a small piece of it. Oh, yeah. I mean, their big ticket items are, you know, the grants from the state, the interest loans from mass housing. I, you know, I don't know all the funding sources, but, you know, usually nonprofits, you can hold your breath. Usually nonprofits, when they're doing a project of this size, are going to have somewhere between a dozen and 15 or 16 separate funders. All, you know, ranging from little things like, you know, the housing trust fund, which is, for this kind of project, modest. Absolutely. I forgot how much. It's 150 this year and 100 next year. I mean, it's, for us, normal people. For us, normal people, it sounds like a lot of money. When you're talking about a project that's tens of billions of dollars, it's not going to get them over the finish line. You know, they've got to get much bigger construction loans, permanent financing, all that line up. But the whole funds have been approved. Yeah, this is going to happen. Yeah. And the little stuff is what helps them get the big stuff. Yes, it shows local support and so forth. And, you know, if I went back to all my files, this comes before COVID, when Father Dave was still on the housing partnership. I don't know where the dates, but this is pre-COVID, because Father Dave and I kept this going during COVID. I kept, I mean, I can't, we had him over for drinks one afternoon. Honestly. Just keep it going. I mean, we had a really nice time that afternoon, but it was a, you know, just, it was on his mind through all of COVID. I wonder how he's come along with Carlyle. I hope, you know, time for Carlyle. Yeah, I've written to him a few times. I think when the tax credits came through, I did write to him to give him the news that the tax credits had been through. But he never wrote back to me. I've written to him a few times. So, he's, he's moved on to other housing partnerships. I don't take a person. The housing production plan. So, the good news is that the housing production plan, the request for proposals to do a new housing production plan, didn't go out. So, they, I provided a lot of comments to their RFP. Kathy chimed in in several important places on the RFP. It's a very good RFP, I think. They originally put it out with a two-week turnaround. I don't know what they were thinking. They originally, their first RFP was out with a due date two weeks or three weeks. It was like so ridiculous, such a short, it was like right before the 4th of July, July 2nd. Yeah. I wrote to Robert, I said, ah. What climate are you from? This, this seems to me not to be a good timeline. Anyway, they did after, they did change it to, so now the due date is July 13th. Okay. It's still a pretty tight tournament, but they did send it out. They did go out to the Barrett group, which had done our prior proposal. And I believe there are about another dozen organizations that are on, have asked for the RFP, including Goldson, which was the other, I think we were very close between Goldson and the Barrett group. Both of them were very good, very experienced consulting companies. Both of them come in again? We don't know. Oh, I see. Proposals, but they're, um, Robert said he personally sent the RFP to both Goldson and to Barrett and to, uh, Mass Housing Partnership, I think. I could be wrong with the third one, but in any case, um, there were about a dozen or so others that apparently asked for the RFP when they heard about it. So that's the good news. For our committee, it's really important to have somebody who is on the review committee, reviewing the proposals, interviewing the, um, consultants. It will be a committee made up of, for example, Robert and maybe somebody from the planning board. I don't remember all the people who will be on this review committee. But it, it should have somebody from the Housing Partnership. I have done this now four or five times. I don't remember when we started to do the housing, uh, production plan. But I think Susan Weinstein wrote the first one. I think I, I mean that was when Sarki was still here. Well, I, I don't think she wrote it from the beginning, but she revised it. I mean she took Sarki's and I took Sarki's and Susan, I, Susan got it over the finish line. And since then we've been doing this now every, uh, what, five years. Um, I am going to retire from my role on a housing production plan. I can't do it anymore. I just, I can't, I can't do it. Um, I, I told Mary this, um, Mary knows I've had health issues this year. I continue to have some lingering problems. Sorry. Thank you. But I'm here. So the good news is I'm here. I don't want to make excuses. I did re-up for another three years, although it did take me a few minutes of thought to think, uh, really up for this another three years. I do want to continue to participate as much as I can, but I'm going to back off from heavy lifting projects. Um, I just can't do it. Um, so it would be really, really, really good to have a member of our committee volunteer to play an active role on the screening of folks for the consulting position. And then ultimately playing a leadership role, however that works out in helping them decide on dates for public forums, reviewing their surveys, because they'll put out a survey for that to residents about resident housing needs. There are a lot of pieces where our input is important. It's important for them to have our voice. Um, it's time for somebody else's voice other than mine. I've been, I've been doing it 20 years or more. I don't know. So I'm just putting out that plea. I, I'd love somebody to volunteer because we really should have representation. It would look poorly if we don't have a member of our committee actively participating. So that's my plea. Yes, sir. Anybody who is interested in voting and don't all jump in and volunteer at one time. I'd be willing, but I don't know what I'm doing. You know? I can't, I can't bring any level of expertise other than willing us to read the documents carefully and try to understand. I think, you know, that's, reading the documents, reading, the, the, the, the interviews may just be Zoom interviews. I don't, I think we did that during, was it during COVID? I don't remember, but I think we had Zoom interviews the last time with the two or three top candidates. It does mean reading a number of proposals, screening them, looking at the RFP carefully, seeing what we asked for. And then, you know, assessing, they're very, very clear criteria for what we're looking for in terms of experience, doing housing production plans, number of years people have been doing the plans, the expertise of the senior member of the team. There are a lot of very clear criteria that, you know, you'll be able to check off pretty quickly. Or maybe Rob will do the initial screen and we'll come out and say these are the five or six that are contenders. I don't know, I don't know what the process will be, but hopefully there won't be too many of the proposals to read. But you'll quickly see which ones feel really competent, really know what they're talking about. Certainly the Barrett Planning Group, which did our housing production plan the last time, I would think would be a very strong contender. They were very professional. They were very thorough. I think nobody had any major comments negatively about them. And every community is doing this. It's not like these are people who are inexperienced. Absolutely. I mean, the Barrett Planning Group and Jen Goldson, I think is the name, are really highly respected. I see their housing production plans online when I'm looking at different communities. I don't know that much about all of the other organizations. I noticed that Christine McKenna-Lock looked like she had requested an RFP. Now Christine, does she work at the Regional Housing Service? She did. I don't know if she's still there. Maybe she's going into her own consulting. She was short of her brief time a member of RFP. Yeah, I remember. She was very engaged. She was great, but unfortunately she left. Maybe she's going into private consulting. She would be very good, but I don't know what her experience has been over the last number of years. Maybe she'll come back to us. Well, so I had to take a conflict of interest test again, which you've all taken. And you know how I'm sitting outside doing it, outside, and my husband's listening to these questions. And he says, could the President pass any of these? No! Absolutely not. I mean, our little housing partnership, you know, I have to take the conflict. Where is the conflict of interest? How about the Supreme Court? Yeah. You know, like, have you accepted a gift of more than $50 cumulative from any one person? Oh, yeah. No more than five a day. The country of color. Yeah, I have a $500 billion. Anyway, we just, you know, had a moment of laughing. Is the tenant paying for the housing for your elderly mother? Thank you. Thank you, Jean, for volunteering. I might say, Jean, I am always impressed with your ability to digest material and come up with ideas. You know, you are extremely discerning. You have the ability to do that. I cannot imagine somebody, I mean, I think you did a great job on the select committee. I mean, yeah, I mean, you are pretty qualified to do it. So, Jean, it just, you're going to learn a lot, and you're going to be important to it, and I am a grateful person. But I'm also here to help you if you need. Well, that's what I said. I could do all the screen, all the mattresses of stuff, and come up with, this looks fishy. All you have to do is... Can they do this legally? You know where I am, you know how to, I don't know if you know where I am. I'm down the road a piece, you know, like all of us. I'm not hard to find. Yeah, I'll ask questions. You're very good at asking questions. I don't want to, you know, echo Jim too much, but I think he's absolutely correct that every time you put your mind to something, you have a creative way of looking at something, and a thoughtful way, and we're very appreciative of that. And this is a learning process for everybody who joins this committee. Only people like me who have been doing this for, you know, 40-something years, and still learning. Still struggling with it. Right. So, we appreciate that. I personally appreciate that. Oh, you're welcome. I think you'll do advantage. We'll wait in and see what we can do. And you're part of the committee, so... Yeah. No, it's only appropriate that the committee be represented in the process. We were talking, you know, about the visibility of the committee being, you know, not great. And we've got to gradually chip away at that. We do. And one way to do that is to show up, to be there. And it's important for new people, new members, to show their voices and to be part of the process. And we did make a big pitch last time about inclusion in the human rights piece. And we really built that into it, so... Yeah. It'll be a natural there. Yeah. Well, it is important. So, I'm going to, tomorrow, Mary, I'm happy to do this right to Robert, since I've been the person on all of the CC's on everything, and I've been the one who's been bugging him about... and bugging the woman at the town building about... July 2nd doesn't really sound like a good date. What, three weeks to get this RFP done? Having worked in development at EDC and working on many proposals, I always felt that the government did that on purpose, to schedule it, right, the day after, the 4th of July, so that our weekends and our holidays were ruined, but they already did all their work, and they can sit back and enjoy it. So, I had the opposite of it. Is that right? I was appalled at the day, but I was also appalled at how little time they were given to do their serious job at writing a significant piece of work, and even though a lot of it is boilerplate for them, they do this all the time, but nevertheless, it was not inadequate, so at least it went to July 13th. So, thank you, and I will... Do you want to vote? Oh, I don't know that we need a vote, but if you want to vote... Well, would it be... Okay. More hefty? Yeah. I... Well, how do we vote this? I nominated Gene Milburn to be the point person, the representative from our committee on to the Housing Production Plan Committee. I think you should include the fact that you're stepping down, and we're appointing Gene as your successor, with the hope that we will continue to... I mean, when I say I'm stepping down, that's a little overstated, Gene. I was never stepped up. You were... I stepped up. Well, you were the representative. Nobody... No, it was like, yeah, who's going to do this? Yeah, I guess I'll do this. Nobody said... I didn't... I never got a vote. Let me be clear about that. So, I'm happy. You ever got paid for it? No. I missed that. I forgot to put in my time sheet. Well, you're writing the minutes, so you can do anything. However we want to do it. So, is there a second? Second. All right. All in favor? Aye. Your name is. Congratulations. So, I assume that Robert leads on this, and I'm just getting told, Shabbat Shabbat. Exactly. Robert leads on this, and she's leading me. I'll get there. At the March 25th meeting, we sort of divvied up which agencies, people, committees, groups, whatever, were going to follow up on ADU changes, policies. And Kathy was going to do the related bylaws or policies, follow up on a bunch of communities to see what they are doing. She has lines and lines and lines in the limits of what she's going to do. So, do you have any reports for us? Well, maybe we should, maybe, one idea would be to start with a town meeting, which is a new, where we are. And then I'll talk to you about, because I did follow up with Dana, and then Dana put me on to something else. The town meeting was before passed, and this was to amend the Zones Bylaw for the Accessibility Dwelling Unit. Everybody probably is on top of this. It was primarily for housekeeping reasons. I had to change the definition because the definition was going to be broader to incorporate not just ADUs by right, but also a special permit to allow greater space, larger sizes, and multiple units on a single property. So you have definitional change. I actually went through the, you know, the bylaw as it had been passed a year ago, the town meeting, and checked it against what was proposed. So I did that. And I think we're, you know, totally covered. But basically, essentially what we're talking about is what, what the planning committee, the board did write out, spell out, I don't think I need to go through it myself. But essentially it was, you know, they, as I said, they changed the definition of accessory dwelling unit to block net, and then, and then they allowed by special permit approval by the planning board with approval, accessory dwelling units larger than 900 square feet, and also multiple accessory dwelling units on that property. They allowed for, to permit accessory dwelling units, affordable address, affordable accessory dwelling units, up to 900 square feet on a by right basis, parallel with the non-affordable units. And I think this is something that was, you know, really quite impressive that we corrected this. So the standards for the non-affordable, the, the affordable, consistent with the protected units now. It's by right to permit larger in multiple, except affordable ADUs by special permit. Um, they, they say in a similar manner. And there is some wiggle room there in terms of ambiguity. Um, so that provided for non-affordable units. Um, the ambiguity, I would say, addresses things like some discretion by the planning board, with respect to parking, and looking at, um, comparable size of the accessible unit compared to the building itself, and stuff that may, in fact, be challengeable. Um, especially if it, you know, doesn't come out the way the housing authority or home effort is promoting, promoting, promoting an affordable accessory dwelling units. Um, it may give too much, in my opinion, this is just my opinion, um, discretion to the planning board. But in any event, I think their hearts were in the right place. I think their intent here is to apply the standards so that it applies similarly and equally, if you will, ideally, um, to the affordable units. Um, also, there was a letter in July 28th, 2025, from the Attorney General's Office when they reviewed, they, we had to review for compliance the original proposal for the protected units before the town meeting, and which was voted on at that point by, um, had to vote only by, um, majority at that point. We only needed a majority vote, is that right? That's right. Yeah. And, um, and, um, but special permit, anything beyond what the state required, required a two-thirds vote. That's what was done this year with the 14288, no problem. But last year, they, the, the planning board, and their thinking, their strategy, was to only put forward what was required to comply with the state law. And that's what they did. And the majority. By majority vote. And they did it by majority vote, which was overwhelming. And, again, um, to comply with the state requirements for the protected units. A protected unit is, it, especially, you know, by right. Um, and, um, the letter to Trudy Reed from the, from the Attorney General's Office, it was a partial, um, approval, you know, for the Article 19. And they had, and those, the things that were corrected were corrected in this Article this year. Um, and it was a reference to, um, requiring a minimum of one parking space, for example. So that minimum was deleted, because it's not a question. Um, who was that letter from Kathy again? Sure. The Attorney General's Office. Okay. Andrew Kim. There was also, um, uh, there was one other thing that related to them. It was, they were, they were minor, but then again, not subtle. Um, there was also, um, there was also, with respect to the issue of, um, table of accessory units. Um, the, you know, what the, what the, the table, it was called Detachment 3. And it talked about the table of permitted principal uses by district. And they talked about, you know, single residence versus roadside business. And, you know, roadside business that said no. And the Attorney General, you know, said, you know, no. It had to be, yes. Um, if it was allowed for, um, single family units. Um, single family homes could be, uh, it could be, uh, accessory dwelling could be allowed in a single family dwelling district. And that included the, the roadside business was allowed for a single family home. So, too, it allowed for the protected by right. And so, that had to be changed. And that was changed in the, in the article. What, what was the date of that AG letter? So, I can just remember. July 25th. Yeah, okay. Do you want the name of the Assistant Attorney General who signed it? Because I, I just don't want to go through all those details. I just would refer to that letter. Um, it's, it's signed by, um, Andrew Campbell. It's signed by Andrew Campbell. That's amazing. By Assistant AG, um, Tashina and Davis. Right. It's, it's enough to say it's from the AG's office. Okay. She, she's signed. And you can go on, actually, this is something everybody should be aware of, too. Um, you can go online and search. There's a search function and you can go in and ask questions in the search function and pick up and pick up a letter to any municipal, town, municipal, and state. In terms of how they're responding to their AGU provisions. Okay. Um. It's great. It's great. It's a good Master's thesis. It's a good Master's thesis. Well, it gets to Mary's other point about what we said in the minutes, what we were going to do or what I was going to do. And, and, with respect to the 352 districts minus Boston. Um, and so basically, um, I don't know that there was too much more to be said here. The, uh, they, they, they fixed the attachment accessory dwelling units, the, uh, the, the table of permitted accessory units by districts in accordance with the director from the office of the Attorney General. And, uh, so the, as this was spelled out by, I'm sure, Annette or Robin, the planning board will be able to grant a special permit to allow accessory dwelling units that's larger than 900 square feet. The planning board will be able to grant a special permit to allow more than one accessory dwelling unit on the wall. And affordable accessory dwelling units will no longer be required to attain a special permit if they otherwise meet the requirements by right, um, protected use in units. And, and, you know, again, 142 to 8 looked like it was a, quite overwhelming. I assume there wasn't a whole lot of discussion. No, it was not. Um, but, um, I mean, it, it was, it was, yeah, I mean, the changes, you can, you can't go through them. I will tell you one other thing that was picked up by the Attorney General's letter related to that, with respect to the parking, related to the fact that when we talked about the minimum of one, what, what that excluded was with respect to the MBTA communities. If you're .5, you know, off-station, you don't have to have any. Well, that minimum of one, obviously, was in conflict. So, that was added to the, um, 901.1, .3, .5. Um, this provision that was just passed on October 24. So, it seems like the planning board's strategy probably was a good strategy after all? I mean, I, I don't know whether it couldn't have happened a year ago, but in fairness to them, I mean, I don't know that it wasn't a good strategy in terms of people being educated and learning to live with it, living with it for another year. Yes, and not overreacting with it. And we put together, thanks to Jean, a good flyer that could send out, you know, half of that town meeting. It was another piece of information. That was your idea. And we had the four. Exactly. So, yeah. People. We're getting used to the idea and hearing about it. And the planning board was not overreaching. Right. Yeah. And I, as Kathy said, I think they have had their part in the right place about trying to promote this and the AADUs being similarly treated. I wish. Yeah. Yeah. Onward. Thank you. And I think the fact that the planning board put an article in about building houses houses in, you know, near Longfell, they overlaid there, despite finance committee disapproval and select board disapproval, again, shows that. Yeah. It really can't. You haven't seen the overlaid. That was the interesting conversation. That one was very interesting. The closeness of that vote, and then hearing major committee people abandon that idea was... 87 to 72. Well, there was a backstory that was not discussed at the area. But the... And should this be in the minutes, or I'm not going to talk about this? I wouldn't put this in. Okay. But the, my understanding is that the building in question is owned by the son of David Watkins. David Watkins publishes a local paper. The web published. Mm-hmm. There was never any mention in the paper which strongly endorsed it, that there was a family member involved. Mm-hmm. I was pretty sure he was involved. Yeah. Not that I had any particular information. Yeah. The opposition was headed by Bill Sterling, very dedicated person who has done a lot for the community, and he's an architect. And he said, I'm not opposed to this, but they should not... It should still be subject to architectural review. What's the big deal? Mm-hmm. I actually agree with him. I agree with him. But people in town, I think, were very concerned about affordable housing, and that's okay. I mean, it was... It didn't bother me. It was a close vote. But I... You know, when you compare the two articles, this one being overwhelming, the other not. The other had not only sort of the back story issue, but it also had the whole thing about architectural review, which was not an inconsequential issue, which could have been addressed had the article, had the drafters of the article thought about it. So... Hopefully it will happen without it being part of it. Hopefully it will happen without it being part of it. There was another back story, which was that the select board was trying to get money to do engineering studies to put high-density housing into the school property... Oh, right now. And there's a significant group of not just holidaying orchards. There were over 70 people in an e-group meeting regularly. appearance of duplicity was really central to support from that group for passing the enabling legislation to use the overlay, the multi-country overlay because we felt that that was an appropriate location, whereas trying to shoehorn into a neighborhood that would be torn up with streets widened and there's no services the feeling was that that was very inappropriate and it just, it wasn't, the logic was not adding up good point, I completely forgot that and I don't know if you saw this group actually used a flyer trying to highlight that the select board is speaking out of two ends of its mouth so I'm not going to put any of this into the room right just let it but I'm sure I'll know that there are sometimes tensions in these projects and these warner articles and the expectation of accountability and honesty on the part of town boards Mary, going back to your question to me going back to the question you asked me about I did contact Dana after I was reading and basically this was to follow up with respect to whether or not there were other towns and municipalities we should be emulating if they were more progressive than what we were doing and what other ideas people had and she said she really wasn't aware of anything other than what she had spoken to us about that night which included Salem, for example, like in Hodel Wealth League, I think um, and, um, but she put me in touch with, um, a person named Meredith I was going to say Boerich, Boerich, B-O-E-R-I-C-K-E who's the A-D-U program director uh-huh for M-H-P? for M-H-P oh, okay, great and, um, and, um, and Meredith, um, basically told me that they really weren't there yet there was no there there as far as, you know, the repository that I was talking about there has to be someone who's collecting the data somewhere there must be a way to, um, to target in here and get, you know, the A-D-U changes without going through 352 minus one because Boston's doesn't not covered, um, municipalities but, in the interim, um, she told me I'm on her way or, um, whatever her mail it was now or, um, and so she said she would share anything she finds out and asked me to do the same great how do you spell the last name again, Kathy? I apologize, I didn't get it the first time B-O-E-R-I-C-K-E I-C-K-E Boerich, perhaps? maybe um, anyway, in the interim this came out, I think I have a date here, I think maybe this is what it was um, 5-20-26, it's called, um, E-D-U's Term 1 Regulatory Barriers to Production in Massachusetts and Ideas for Further Reform and it came out from the Boston Indicators Project in Abundant Housing, Massachusetts and it's, um, is that all the words on? you know, yes, yeah, yes it was a study done by Amy Dane uh, who does a lot of, of studies a lot of stuff on exclusionary zoning and the municipalities are and I have the executive summary here, um, I can pass you around if you want to share the link ignore what's on the back okay if you're relevant I mean, the bottom line is the the position that the state is that MHP is taking as well as these folks is that they don't really want to focus on individual towns um, they essentially the, the problem is that you have these contractors who are, right now they are focusing on individual towns and they've, like they've identified an area like Wellfleet, Brewster or whatever um, you know Orleans and they, this is where they're going to work because it's too crazy to try to figure out what Weyland is doing in Western Zoo in Sudbury Lexington and, you know Delmont and keep going and everybody has something different and it makes them all nuts and that's the problem of the system as it is now and they're saying that these regulatory barriers are the problem to the holding back the state reform and the, their position here in this report is that the state didn't go far enough in its reform and legislation because of they want to push further and they want you know you know take it on um and, and address the barriers like you know septic um and um fire building fire septic systems wetlands stormwater utilities zoning you know they're saying zoning zoning for example allow up to 1200 square feet for any protected used ADU regardless of the size of the principal structure define clear dimensional requirements for ADUs such as minimum setbacks maximum height and allow municipalities to be more permissive with zoning requirements but not more restrictive and adopt statewide standards for a site plan review instead of having everybody having to have these individual site plan reviews yeah the transactions costs are ridiculous and that's that's what they basically are coming up with on this and down you know just one yeah I mean just when you think I mean a homeowner what do you have to do you have to bring your architect or builder your lawyer you know you're going to pay all these people to accompany you through the whole process and I don't know how much you know the town of Wayland has people who are eligible to get you know any kind of support I think just by way of context I mean Kathy I haven't seen this report but zoning is such a local issue it is a local part of I think the police power so it's a local issue for any state to interfere with local zoning from the get go is a big deal and very few states across the country have actually done that Massachusetts has been doing that since 1969 with 40B several other states have emulated Massachusetts around the 40B exclusionary zoning issues but for any state to do what we've done even on the MBTA communities it's a big deal it's all a very big deal to override overrule local zoning so the fact that the state is not more aggressive yes I agree the local regulatory barriers are enormous but trying to muck with them at the state level is a very big deal also so I'm just saying in that context it ain't easy it ain't easy to deal with local regulatory issues look at the pushback of the MBTA bill absolutely just calling it out essentially gives us our mandate that we have to keep working at the local level we've got to really take a hard look at those transactions costs I try to focus as much as possible Kristen is another person who obviously should be involved in our conversations too but the regionalization approach to be thinking of it all exactly because if we're talking about a housing crisis something's going to change and that's what they would basically start with the data and whatever number 1200 units well 1200 units is drop in the pocket we know what a mess we're in the mess we're in is shared by many many many other states across the country every year the national low income housing coalition which is the national advocacy group for low income housing every year they put out a report that says that even no place in the country I love this statistic in no place in the country no place in the country can two full-time minimum wage earners afford the HUD you know median price of whatever unit no place in the country can two people working full-time at minimum wage afford a two bedroom standard unit according to the HUD guidelines you can look it up every year they come out with that statistic every year it's the same damn thing you can be in Iowa Nebraska other market areas and still two people two adults working full-time at low wage jobs can't afford a unit in their communities anyway fair market rent houses anyway that's why issues like should we be talking about allowing shared housing are coming up because we're not addressing the problem constructively yet we're still not there you say shared housing it's the most unrelated people who work together yeah what's wrong with that especially for seniors I think there's a lot of seniors who don't want to go to aggregate communities in part because they're incredibly expensive for a lot of people but still it's lonely to be home by yourself and if they could move a couple of friends in and live together and share expenses and college and yeah well I mean that's a happy it can be a happy thing for being able to do that I've certainly known people who've done that in their old age in places where you know they were relaxed about it nobody cared it was usually frankly several ladies moving in together in a house sharing a house and sharing the expenses because down there were on you know retirement and columns and they weren't causing any trouble I mean it's not I don't know what being unrelated does to turning you into a bad neighbor you know there's just somebody who lived in with six kids and there were eight people used to be thought of communists that was the original zoning thing that was like Beltaire versus Morris back in the 70s you couldn't have three or four unrelated students that was in Stonebrook that was where it was a college town and the neighborhood it was a high scale neighborhood they didn't want to have these kids living in houses and you know smoking weed doing other things that wouldn't yeah somebody living in the dining room
make things more affordable have community help each other out I mean it's a it's a fabulous the language now is not elderly people it's older adults just just to let you know the correct line one or two of us having done a consultant having done a report a pro bono report I'll say a non-profit that deals with older adults I was corrected more than once when I talked about elderly housing guilty guilty discharged yeah it's the section 202 program we used to call it the elderly housing program it is now housing for older adults just want you to know my dreams have been slapped more than once it's not even senior housing it's housing for older adults now we are with it right like Jack said no it's true but I look right my supervisor said you can't do that anymore and I'm like when did
it's old housing for older adults we could just call it mature instead of older it's mature it's not about maturity it's about older it's just the way you hire anybody is on the bigger toe it's about older for sure anyway just language we've got a different language since several of us called older adults including a mature older adults my brother used to have this report when people would ask how old he'd say you know I'm 35 but I have to mature to make up for it anything else Kathy I just want to thank something you said that triggered something with me about the cost of the cost of studying or getting consultants out the state is looking at this today actually there's something there's a name for them now if you don't
they've identified or they're seeking to identify qualified people who are going to be on a form with your background contractors yes but not to build but to be consultants on site review but it's not a technical meaning of the term but going in with you and the state is putting up the money I don't know 500 or thousand bucks to do this process where they're basically going to work with anybody in the community who wants to have these people with them and go through their land you came up with a wizard yeah there's the website that has a movable map and you say how many square feet and what shape you want your building to
basically has this information about this what they're now soliciting this team of people who will be available to assist and then they go out and look at your site and basically tell you whether it's viable or what the likelihood of cost are going to be or where the barriers are going to be whether you're dealing with the setback issue again which is one of the major ones apparently for many present states or septic septic and wetlands and stuff like that okay I still wish that we could take advantage of these kinds of challenges to move forward on allowing things like you know gray water systems and alternative septics that for Wayland it's the most difficult thing to do is to do something new is that the same argument there's an argument here that we can't move on unless we're part of this massive we're going to be part of this group obviously we'll feed into this at the same time it doesn't mean you can sit back and do nothing so maybe it is a question of targeting what makes sense here and maybe it comes out of a production plan maybe it comes out of ideas like that like where do we want to put our emphasis and make a push and then be a model as one of the model communities and accomplishes something because I mean we could be aligned with you know the climate action plan and we could I mean we could just be compliant or aligned but we could also be synergistic and forward looking and it seems like you know that's the benefit of having a town meeting style governance system where you have expertise you know from the community like this that we should be able to be a lot more forward looking so you were going to be in communication with the building department on a regular well I don't know probably not a regular basis but from time to time I haven't touched face with the department yeah so anything to report no and that's me I'm remiss I haven't reached out to them and I had several groups that I was going to follow I did listen to the Amy Dane Zoom program which was quite interesting the 495 partnership is having a has a number of groups that meet under them and they have a housing committee and they are going to be talking about ADUs on the 15th of July and I registered for that Zoom program so if I learn anything from that let you know Metro West Regional Collaborative has their work plan for the beginning for the next year which they will start in September and so in June of 2027 they will be having a meeting housing and transportation the 495 meeting is expected to talk about early implementation emerging trends and lessons learned so I will That's the ADU conversation That's the ADU conversation on the 15th So that's my update I think we'll in future meetings I'll probably put these member updates under updates and so any of you who are following any of these groups may or may not have anything to report we'll keep putting it on the agenda and keep track of it and we'll probably put a production plan under that and at some point there'll be some reports coming out of that group Which brings us
of the partnership we've talked about the fall forum so this is a wide open thing if there are any thoughts about any of these now or putting them on a future agenda so I had a conversation with Doug
the town has I think it's maybe the select board that the town has too many boards and committees and we need to consolidate and he mentioned that there are so many different housing entities and maybe they should all be consolidated into one so if that is indeed a conversation on the select board I think we need to think about it and an idea of what our advice would be on that issue that was in the last production housing production plan that was one of the recommendations and it was discussion at the time and the housing authority has a very distinct charge the housing trust and the housing trust talked about whether they want to spend time advocating and there did not seem to be any particular interest in that group in expanding their role and so I'm not sure how what changes have been I don't see either the housing authority or the trust spending an hours meeting trying to figure out you know how to get more ADU's built how to have housing housing authority is really an operations body you have housing and you get new units you get put into that and I was just going to say how can they merge the two because they're literally there to oversee how it's run nothing to do with history has been a discussion it was a specific strategy in the last housing production plan and there was some conversation at that time there was also a consulting report prior to the last housing production plan that somebody put together organizational changes with the housing committees again what Jackie just said the housing authority oversees the management the funding etc of the housing authority units the public housing in town the town and vouchers and vouchers the distribution of vouchers and those people the commissioners on the housing authority are elected positions and their job is statutorily statutorily thank you is to oversee the running of the housing that the town owns and manages and that is a very different from water advocacy housing they've got a specific mandate which is enough I mean that's plenty to oversee the running of our students so they have from time to time gotten involved in more but they're not going to take the leadership role nor are they really I don't know what their specific charter is but it's not it's not bad it's not you know really we are closer in in in you know focus the planning board it it hears cases and reviews sites and it like the zoning board it's a it's a committee that makes adjudications but it also has a policy making side policy making side prepares and mends the bylaws they you know they've got got a lot more money and resources than we do they have the town planner but we we're more at least the way I view it as an adjunct to the planning board than we are to the housing authority it's totally different we may be closer to the housing trust but the housing trust is really a finance agency we have no money and no power we are distinguished from everybody else we have no money like the housing authority this is probably why we don't have more members because you keep stopping the people that join us we have no money no power we are on the side of the side of right you know we're a special committee and housing is important you know if they want to phase us out they can phase us out but that will be a loss to the town but
we have to move into the planning board I think they're the only group that is remotely like this and I don't think they care about they have their hands oh I don't disagree but one way to do this would be to look at the planning board and say you know you've got too much on your plate and we're going to chip off a portion of the planning board and we're going to make the wayland housing partnership more robust because we need affordable housing we need housing is
but you know they've got too many other things to do with dealing with specific site plans and also the big picture of the zoning bylaws believe me I'm not an expert in town governance or anything but I think that would be the way to go and believe me I
even slot on the planning board agenda or an upcoming meeting maybe just suggest that a few of us just say how can it be more helpful to you how can collaborate better with you you know we seem like we work really well on the ADU issue how can going forward continue to have a good collaborative relationship or something like that and if they don't want us cluttering up their meetings with reports and pestering we
work with you would you prefer that we work more directly with the town planner which I think may be a more effective way and let him be the liaison that's fine because we don't have any staff members and if we can be a way for Robert to offload some things get them off the planner that's fine but I
wide arms open arms but I think if that's the direction and if that's what Michael McCall wants maybe the thought is to go meet with him and say okay we've got a great group of people frankly we don't have as many volunteers as we'd like but we think we maybe we're disfavored maybe somebody wants to
hey but we're here we're willing to help out and you know maybe maybe maybe they would help to get us with the planning board in a way that we would What if we were a sub committee of the human rights That's another option human rights That's the
that's an advisory committee to the select board I think if this were more as a support and advisory to the planning department it would be more logical Very good suggestion is the human rights and diversity because we perform somewhat analogous functions in a slightly different But I don't want to be sub committee I don't want to
What we've done on the committee is we have recognized housing as an issue so we try to be supportive of the partnership and we liked the idea of being co-sponsors of any kind of public involvement public education program if you want to do another forum Well I think one of the
be wrong about this but my understanding is the reason we have a Weyland housing partnership is because of chapter 40b because I think that with 40b housing requirements I think I don't know if there was a mandate in the law originally but my memory is that every town has to have a housing partnership I be wrong that was my initial thought way back when when I was writing 40b decisions on the zoning board is that they were sort of helping out they because I wasn't perfect were helping out the zoning board and were acting as a resource within the town to effectuate the 40b needs for affordable housing and assist the zoning board or in this case the planning board I think we would have a similar role with respect to the MBTA law so I'm sorry Mary that's okay at one point we were the point board for 40b but when we changed the way the town was administered that role of being the point person for 40b went to the town administrator I see so okay so you know maybe maybe I don't know maybe the thing is to talk to the town administrator and say you know we're looking for a role we have interest we have talents but you know we're not quite sure where we fit in and we think we could be a real asset to the town but I think we need support we don't need we don't want boards to think that we're competing with them or maybe mentioning on them yeah maybe we should go to the town manager first since he is the point person and explain what we see as our role and suggest that there be some relationship with the planning board and perhaps make it a bit more formal than it is now rather than start with the planning board I think that would be better because I think the town manager has the ultimate power and if he's as you pointed out if he's taken over some of our original role that's fine but maybe he should then help us to find a new role or new structure or governance or whatever it is to help us become more visible and more useful I just don't want us to come off sounding weak and not seen I think we have a track record of having been prominent in issues and taking stands and I don't know I think it's fine to go to the time manager we talked about doing that and even I think I was supposed to organize a meeting but I
we advocated for we lost issues but we are here always advocating we've done habitat houses we're doing same dance this is all because of our committee we did the ADU we got people aware of ADUs we have been a forceful advocate for house and I think we should if we go to the town manager we should because he's not been here that long we did Oxpo we have been a leader in trying and being innovative and we have scattered site public housing and we've got two you know on side anyway I just feel like we should be proud of ourselves yeah one of the thing that concerns me is what we talked about before is that you talked about going to meetings and there are adversarial relationships and I think we're being well naïve here to think that we're going to be embraced by like now we had a good relationship with planning on ADUs but they're pretty damn limited we've got 12 going on in town well that's hardly 12 applications or something in town it's hardly you know that just might be the way it is but that may be but it doesn't seem to me that that's I
think people's names but I think about the fights we had over the affordable housing with respect to the looking the same the outside the inside and the fighting with them in terms of planning you mean old arguments in terms of like the route 20 housing
remember well we had lots of differences we had lots of differences of opinion with the town people the town managers the town the planning board they did not embrace the ownership in terms of what we were talking about there was a real failure on oxbow talking about oxbow that was a major loss to the town which one did the 12 military which should have had three affordable units and they were permitted as a matter of right they were given building permits as a matter of right even though they expanded by 25% by taking over the garage and
that's screw up that's attributable to not having us in the loop and so that's sort of a cautionary tale to the town to say hey if you want to get rid of us go ahead if you want to keep us out of things go ahead but this is what happens you lost at least three units you lost money that developer got a great deal and that was an embarrassment it should have been an embarrassment because things were not done right we could go back to dead and there was no water to get to dead and that is that right yeah we should we should Mary I think we should thank Mary for going forward and taking over the job again of chair we haven't voted her in she has agreed I think to keep going as long as nobody else steps forward and I think we all Mary a real thank you for continuing to be willing to do this because it is a load it's fine but you put forth a good case for the positive things that we've done and I wonder if you want to just make a list of something that we could put an article in the way one post they don't publish me they're publishing me on various topics so if you can give me the history in any form you want just talk it into an email voice email you have to be a collective email of people putting down stuff that we like let's do that feed it to me they publish me all the time I only tried once but I had better luck with the Boston club than also thinking we have to figure out how does that play in with meeting with the town administrator you
it it will be sort of the flyer that Jane was talking about to give us some visibility so you have a project of interest writing that article but just saying what I have to reveal the committee of course that's fine an enthusiastic member of the committee people are assholes that's what we do we put together a collective memo on our accomplishments and the things that we should have been involved with I was thinking of when I said Oxfoy I was thinking of the Nike site oh Nike site was great at least from the CBA as opposed to the disaster where we try obviously to get that site completely affordable and Sarki worked hard to get that site completely affordable anyway so you know I think this committee just needs to advertise and it's what it does and also think we need to pick some new targets you know we've got stuff in process that's in the bag like the stuff of the Catholic church looks like it's in the bag it's going to get built and it's like call it win and move on and we need to pick some
60,000 square foot and greater zoning category right right now we've got 20,000 acre lots 40,000 acre lots and 60,000 acre lots let's say why have the 60,000 acre lot it doesn't you know do anything to enhance the community if we take it down to 40 it'll give some people chances to subdivide their lots and build a few more homes in
cluster it would allow higher density and that is important because the conservation cluster you know was designed in the 70s and it is medium density but it actually could be a much tighter and more dense cluster with the appetites that people have for more of a lot better yeah so what I'm trying to do is say let's take an underlying assumption that we've been just let it sit there and let's figure out where we can challenge the
we can set up a time to brainstorm all this stuff and start beating the drum for like the cluster development thing I think we can do better you know right now we have to have seven acres well good luck finding seven
let's go back and read the conservation cluster stuff and come up with a proposal for a different form where we might actually be some pieces of land that are big enough to do you know something similar to it you know and get more units on the land I think we've got some you know let's not go ask the people who are going fight us let's figure out for ourselves what the impediments are let's look at each of one and say let's see what we can let's get our article out saying a recap of the housing partnership or something like that and then let's plan a brainstorming and also then simultaneously talk to Michael McCall after this hits the way of the post but I think for me I'm running out of steam for tonight virtually yeah brainstorming might be helpful before we talk yeah yeah so I'm just thinking about article article number one brainstorming number two McCall number three yeah and that might be a way to attract new members because people like win ballot developers might have an interest in joining this board because they would see it as a way to help to increase the housing stock as a way to make things easier we don't have any developers here wouldn't these kind of ideas relevant to the housing protection planning so that you have these kind of ideas yeah even if they aren't interested in pushing it you know yeah with the people who submit their response to RFP my key question to them is going to be well you know I believe you can do excellent analysis you know what the state guidelines are all that's great how do you deliver on results can you show me that your client towns have used you actually build more affordable housing yeah it's great great question van other companies plans you've already been hired you don't have the job but you know it's like we want to see you know we have to have mechanisms by which we take you know get the results they're going to say so fabulous I know there's only 12 units this year but I have great faith that that is going to grow the AU popularity because the incentives are all aligned people do this in their own self interest they're financing it themselves they don't have to go out and find a bunch of capital they do it because it's good for themselves and their family and it builds the value of their asset you know the more we can find things where people will look at and say this is great building more housing means I'm better off you
every meeting we don't say who's going to do minutes why don't we just make a list of rotates so that every what there six of
have ad ad ad ad ad can't sit in a meeting and gave up thirty years ago taking minutes because my brain won't quit but if people are not comfortable with being recorded because there's all this technology I can record and it'll make minutes and AI the minutes yeah and that's how I'd have to do it Mary is that okay with you can we have just a cue that I knew that Gene could not do it we can either do five of us or I have no problem with Gene recording yeah I have no problem either I think we should be using AI to give us a jump on minutes so it will generate and then you just review it and correct anything just gets into more detail open and any of us have the patience to read I mean if we had a transcript of tonight's meeting it
hello are you there I would like to also thank Mary for once again volunteering as well as for the time and effort you put in as the chair so thank you I deeply appreciate it so should I just put together the list and the next meeting you just hear the news plateners step down no it's too bad it's the right thing to do whether it's fair or not I have no idea that the country needs that seat held by swear to support the constitution and need it so the next meeting are we talking about somewhere around a month from now which would be August 5th seem to work for people that's Wednesday that won't work for Memorial that day about the 6th is it Thursday okay the
thinking I'm coming back on about the 6th or the 5th so if the 6th works Thursday I think they have a more difficult time recording on Thursdays we can go to the following week if you want for you the 12th yep the 12th at the moment it's okay but at the moment it's okay for me but I'm happy to put it down the 12th 12th looks good I'll just put it in seven o'clock same place same people Jim second all in favor yes aye opposed we are adjourned at whatever time it 41 on my watch um