May 20, 2026 – Personnel Board – Video & Transcript
May 20, 2026 - Personnel Board
So I will call the meeting to order.
It must now be 4.03.
4.04.
4.04 p.m.
It's an in-person and remote access meeting.
We're in the Wayland Town Building in the Select Boardroom.
The location for this in-person meeting is wheelchair accessible.
It's also accessible by Zoom.
This meeting is being recorded,
and it will be made available to the public on Wacom
as soon as possible after the meeting.
The public will be excluded from executive sessions.
Pursuant to Chapter 2 of the Acts of 2025,
this meeting will be conducted in person and via remote access
in accordance with applicable law.
This meeting has remote access. One may watch or participate remotely with a meeting link that can be found at When required by law or allowed by the chair, and it will be allowed by the chair, persons wishing to provide public comment or otherwise participate in a meeting may do so at the meeting location and or by remote access. Public comment is, they suggest public comment be limited to two minutes per person. We have in the room, we have a quorum, we have board members, Paul Morenberg, Jill Zukerman, Mary Ann Peabody, myself online. We have Mary Ellen Castagno, and Dave Williams is en route from Rhode Island and is hoping to get here as soon as possible. So I'll read the agenda for the public. Discussion and possible vote. Well, I'm sorry, first call to order and announcements. Discussion of possible vote on Wayland Firefighters, International Association of Firefighters, AFL-CIO, Local 1978, Vacation Carryover Requests, as outlined in Article 9-4, the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Then we will enter into executive session pursuant to Mass General Laws, Chapter 30A, Section 21A-3, to discuss a grievance at Step 2 with the Wayland Firefighters, IAFF-AFL-CIO Local 1978, pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 30A, Section 21A, to review and approve executive session minutes of 10-9-2025, and with the intent to hold such minutes. And we will return to open session and have a discussion and possible vote to recommend changes to personnel policy on sexual harassment. And then we will have a discussion and possible vote to elect a chair of the Personnel Board and a discussion and approval of open session meeting minutes of January 20th, 2026. And then any personnel board members' reports and concerns, set the next meeting date and adjourn. Also, at present at the meeting, we have Kate Ryan, who is our HR Director in the Town of Wayland, and she is also the meeting manager today. And online, we also have Neil McPherson, the Fire Chief. And one announcement I have is that I had placed an item on the agenda to review the fire staffing study, which we've all been waiting for for a long time. And it was on the agenda for the Select Board on Monday, and the Select Board decided to put together a working group under the town manager, but the Fire Chief has agreed to come and review with us the fire staffing study at our next meeting in June. And I will tell you all that you can find the fire staffing study, according to Chief McPherson, on the fire department part of the town website. I found it in the packet that the Select Board had this past week. It's about 107 pages. I've read most of it, but it's a long study. And so we look forward to hearing from you on that next month, Chief. The first item on the agenda that we will discuss is a possible vote on the Firefighters International Association to carry, for vacation, carryover requests. And this is something that happens every year because the firefighters have on their collective bargaining agreement that they come before the personnel board to talk about their vacation carryover. And so, Kate, you want to tell us about that? We have our list. We have everybody looks like they're within the normal limits of what the vacation carryover is, but why don't you give us an update? So in prior years, there's not really, the contract doesn't really explicitly state how much can be carried over and how can't much. However, there's been a practice of allowing carryover of equivalent of two weeks, which is four days and four nights. So that's where we're at. If you look at all of the requests here, all of those are under the four-day, four-night, two-week equivalent. I did neglect to mention that in the room is also Taylor Ziegler-Miller, the president of the Firefighters Association and Jack Stafford, a firefighter. Okay. So this is within the normal amount that are usually asked to carryover. And requested within the time frame. Correct. And they're requested within the time frame. And I know we had, last year, we had a late request. Did that person know that everything had to be in by May? We had an injury after the weekend. Oh, okay. All right. So, okay. So, he had thought he would be using. Exactly. Okay. He thought he had time to use it and then didn't. Okay. So, everybody has, who wanted to request vacation carryover has. Okay. Okay. No.
If I may, I think in the past, the board has tend to approve these types of requests with the caveat that they are used within six months of the fiscal year. Right. We've been July. We've generally asked that they be used by December 31st, 2026. Does anyone have any input or questions about these requests? Oh, the chief is on there. I don't know if he wants to jump in. Again, I would just say that I think we put this out. Thank you to the firefighters for responding in a timely fashion. I believe we have a complete list at this point in time. You'll see that the overall numbers are in fact declining in terms of vacation carryover. Yeah, they're actually declining. So, people are using more of their vacation and we have, in fact, in the past, sometimes put a caveat for people to use it within six months. That was more so done, though, for people who are carrying over more than four units, right, the week long. So, I'm not sure that we've necessarily put a cap on them if they were using under four days and four nights. I think we did last year. I think we capped all of it, yeah. We capped all of it last year. Yeah, we did. Does anyone have any thoughts? No? Okay. Do you want to cap, do you want to, someone make a motion, please?
Do you want to, it's going against the contract? There's no language present in that part. About capping? About capping. I think the reason that we're doing it was because we were talking that it was backing up really bad. So, we wanted people to take their vacations so that they... Well, yeah, I saw it for COVID because our vacations did not. Yeah. I think it was because Louise Miller actually asked for the cap and that was before COVID. She asked because there was so much, there was so much sick time that was accumulating. So, she asked for it, I think, in 2019 to cap it. So, I don't think it's... Do you think it needs to be going in, Kate? Well, I think the personnel board has voted to cap it in the past. I don't know that... I mean, that may constitute a practice but that's not a legal scholar when it comes to contracts. It's within our discretion to do it. So, I don't know because I do remember that what was happening was there was a lot every year and this is like within what people would say sure, you know. I think it's... I mean, what the chief is saying is reasonable. We want to be reasonable. We want people to carry over all of our other collective bargaining units are allowed to carry over at a minimum two weeks and also. So, the four days and four nights is equivalent to about two weeks for everyone else. I think people will be able to use it within the year so that we're not carrying it over next year. what do you think?
I mean, I'm not sure. What does the language say for the board? Does it say separate to the personal board's approval? Yeah. The carry over is up to our approval. I mean, that sounds like it could be approved with conditions, but I'm not sure. And I certainly don't want to see the union members have a bargain for right limited in an unfair way. So, are you okay with letting it float and see what happens? I mean, if we get it back. the chief has no problem with it and feels that it's manageable, I think let's keep it as unrestricted as possible. Okay. All right. So, can I have a motion? I could make a motion, but I would like to ask a question first, Marianne. I didn't see, raise your hand, but I can't see It's okay, Marianne, you didn't see me raise my hand because I couldn't find it on the screen, that's why. So, I just thought it would be best to speak up, so that's okay. But, the reason why they're carrying over is because they can't get somebody to cover for them because staffing is tight. I know that there were some firefighters that were out. Is that still the situation? Because there are lower numbers. I'm just, like everyone else, concerned that folks aren't getting their vacation. That's my question. So, if I can answer. Sure. Sure. The answer is this is not because we were not able to cover their shifts. This is because people were unable for various reasons to use their vacation time. So, it's not because we were not able to cover their shifts. And is nobody asking for pay on this one? No. No. It's just going to carry on. Okay. Great.
Okay.
The chief have any objections with the carry over vacation being used for an entire year? Was that the request?
Yeah. Rather than we were always limiting it to six months or we have in the past limited to six months. Do you have any objection to if we don't limit it to six months this time? I don't. I think, again, the six months becomes very important. If people are asking for more than the four and four, that we go ahead and we have a limitation that people have to use some of that time, but I don't necessarily with these numbers at this point think that we have to lock them into six months to use that time. Okay. All right. So the motion is I move to approve the vacation carryover that we've been given for the firefighters with no restrictions. I don't even think you have to add no restrictions. I don't know.
That's what I would do. I would just approve it. Yeah. Do I have a second? Okay. Roll call vote. Mary Ellen? Yes. Okay. Paul? Yes. Jill? Yes. Mary Ann? Yes. Okay. And now we will enter into I move that we enter into executive session pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 30A Section 21A3 to discuss a grievance at Step 2 with the firefighters IAFF AFL CIO Local 1978 and pursuant to Mass General Laws Chapter 30A Section 21A3 to review and approve executive session minutes of 10 8 2025 with the intent to hold said minutes because to do so in open session would now I don't have my wording with me but would may negatively impact have a negative impact on the on the town's bargaining bargaining ability Do we want to do this after the Step 2 grievance or I'm sorry I thought you were talking about that we're moving into executive section and to hear this Step 2 grievance I would invite Kate Ryan I would invite Taylor Ziegler Miller the president of the firefighters union local 1978 chief do you want to come into the executive session is he frozen no okay he's frozen he's frozen I'll invite him whether he wants to come or not and the grievance Jack Stafford to the part to hear the grievance and then you'll leave executive session and we'll stay in the session and then we will be back in open session what time is it probably by 5 19 do you think 5 20 for the public to go back into open session so keep looking if you want to come back to open session to see if we have returned to open session starting at 5 20 thank you now we go into executive sessions oh we need a roll call vote to go into executive session may I have a second okay okay Paul yes yes Mary Ellen yes okay Mary yes okay so oh there we are moving back to open session at 5 10 is it 5 10 still by the time we're here 5 12 Mary Ellen are you there we don't have Mary Ellen yet I am I am 5 12 I'm just hiding I'm here you have to unmute faster to open I try okay so we are back in open session and I was reminded that I forgot to ask for public comment at the beginning of the agenda so I will ask if there's any public comment can you see Kate sorry sorry I know if there is it'll be the first time yeah in my three years I've never in all the years even though the meetings were open we had participation by the public once once that I remember and they came because they were concerned about something but that was it just one okay yeah so I can't see everybody I can't see us but I don't see everybody can see us yep Kate we're not on what are they seeing I can only see Kate and Paul that's right that's okay yeah that's all right so okay great thank you I will ask is there any public comment Kate there is not no public comment okay what is okay so the next agenda item is discussion impossible vote to elect the chair of the personnel board I put it on here knowing that it's the time of year we have to do
I I don't know that I have time to do that but yeah I are you willing to continue on as chair I'm willing to continue but you know somebody should take over I shouldn't be always the same I don't mind doing it it's not heavy lifting but if you find that you don't have the time I will do it it's not my preferred thing would be to rotate it a bit but if you guys you
and okay all right so I will consider I mean you want to vote all in favor and you're making the recommendation right okay I just passed the whole thing as the personal board chair for life yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean should in all fairness should we do like six months is that reasonable practice and then we can revisit it we can revisit it term no a lot of well so some of the work I do is on boards and it's good practice to rotate okay and I've been on the board for a lot of years and haven't rotated a lot which is you know not something I think that should happen too but being chair some boards nobody wants to do it and one person is willing and it keeps it but it is
wayland town boards do they have like a general term for a chair or anything some do and some it's just board by board sometimes nobody will do it and sometimes other one person has more time free than other people so they'll do it even even co-chairs I think some yeah they do co-chairs you want to be co-chair this year in case I mean I would feel comfortable in six months revisiting the thought once like my son is settled and all right okay so we'll say from June to where we visit in January we used to change in the end of the year fiscal year and then we realized everybody else in town does it right after town meeting so we changed it all right so first for six months and then we can revisit it so Kate remind us to revisit it so Mary Ellen you made the motion I second it Jill with great enthusiasm Paul yes yes yes Dave yes me yes you have to ask me you have to ask me I didn't tell Jill yes I seconded it I seconded oh that's right I didn't roll call you I'm sorry I just I wasn't sure she did Mary Ellen Mary Ellen moved it so I just have a question so it's going to be revisited as to you know election again in six months for co-chair I mean for a chair but what did you decide on a co-chair for this group no yes you want to have a co-chair I think at the moment Paul can't do it I think that in six months well I think that okay okay reasonable for me it's okay we have open session minutes so we voted on that right so it's five two zero oh yeah we voted okay excuse me I think we may have jumped over the policy I did we jumped over the policy which is what we need to do it's personnel policy 8251 sexual harassment so that's the next agenda item sorry I didn't make it in big print yeah it's the redlined version and then there's yeah there was a redlined version and then a version after it does anyone shall we go over the clear version of it are the pages numbered page 21 right well it would be off I don't I've read the mark okay does anyone have we can walk through it does anyone have any comments on the harassment sexual harassment policy I'm looking at I guess I left the other version home so I just have the it's okay if I may just sort of jump in this is the second time this is coming to you the board discussed it a couple of months ago it's in my notes January January there you go so that's irrelevant that your minutes are coming up so the goal here is to combine basically sexual harassment with harassment discrimination a larger policy which seems to be more the industry trend not just in the municipal sector but across the board to have one policy that kind of talks about all different types of harassment discrimination and sexual harassment is just one of those so that's the goal and I'm pretty sure I included a couple of sample policies if I maybe it was just the first time you gave it us we we had this stuff from pv law I mean kp law does anyone have any comments on it any comments okay go ahead paul no no go ahead paul yeah so the way this was edited on page two where we now have a harassment section and then a sexual harassment section so one and two under sexual harassment are well actually okay so the the first part of the definition of sexual harassment unwelcome sexual advances requests for sexual favors that's definitely unique to sexual harassment then the the the numbered items the submission to such conduct that's I would also be sexual harassment and that's as would two but number three like the hostile work environment concept could apply to non sexual harassment I don't know if you want to also repeat that in the preceding section somehow good idea I think this is the statutory so that's why these three pieces are in here but yeah no that's a good that's a good point it is relevant to harassment so Paul you're asking for that to be put under both sections right for harassment and sexual I agree with you or actually so like if you go further down where it says hostile work environment is a form of sexual harassment where pervasive and sexually hostile working conditions reasonably interfere with the employee's ability to do his or her job that could be item three under harassment I agree I agree so are you suggesting I thought you were suggesting moving number three up to the portion on just harassment but then hostile work environment would be number four right or no he's saying that use the verbiage and make that number three yeah oh okay oh I see right yeah okay yeah yeah so we're moving hostile work environment under harassment under number three harassment or are we changing okay we are moving that up to number three all right but I think making leaving it in both sections but modifying that to fit well hostile work environment can be a form of sexual harassment okay yeah but is it a form or can it be a form I'm sorry so hostile work environment is a form of sexual harassment or can be a form uh well it is a form it is a form of sexual harassment okay it could also it could also occur in a non-sexual context yeah right that's what okay so you'd put it under both places or just I would put it in both places okay yeah I agree with him so my question was is that when because these are now combined say an employee was looking just for harassment do you have a look up um that if he just a person put harassment in this policy would come up so uh yes and no we just well the no is that we just transitioned to a brand new um website and so things are a little jumbled around some of the links aren't active so we're working on that but yes that is the goal to have all of this searchable and findable on the website okay and you're right that new website is a little confusing because it takes where the other one took maybe two clicks this has taken three and four clicks to get information that's what I found when I was looking over the weekend and quid pro quo is definitely under sexual harassment correct yes yeah well yeah actually I don't know if this is worth revising but this definition is a little awkward it's usually phrases where the submission to there's not a form of sexual harassment or tangible job benefits are offered or withheld in exchange for but it could also be it's broader than that it could be where it could be the threat of that potential job benefits or or or or the threat of yeah are offered or withheld or threatened to be withheld yeah based on based on either an exchange for I don't know that phrase exchange for sexual favor is also kind of it's usually sort of submitting to or acquiescing to or I don't know let's see if I can look up some language here real quick I would use both of those terms because it would be different yeah that language actually comes directly from or almost directly from the KP law version that's where the language actually their language is a little clearer yeah so the MCAD model policy says that sexual harassment means sexual advances requests for sexual favors in verbal or physical conduct when submission to or rejection of such advances requests or conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of employment or as a basis for employment decision or such advances requests or conduct the purpose of or effective unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance by creating intimidating hostile humiliating or sexually offensive work environment is that the quid pro that's it they mix it together I will work at that I mean I think it's okay I mean quid pro quo is still used but I think MCAD actually doesn't use it in the current policy not sure why but so do you feel like that would prevent you from approving no I think it's a little awkward but I think it's okay I think it's okay leave it as is or change it or offered or withheld or threatened to be withheld yeah I thought your verbi of submitting or acquiescing to sexual favors was better I think it was although it probably stands as is but you can always bring it back to yeah I mean you're saying in exchange for submitting to acquiescing or not reporting I don't know yeah or not reporting yeah sexual favors or sexual advances something like that can I make a motion to table this and take it back with I think we can finish it I think the changes were to add that third under harassment that hostile work environment under harassment onto sexual harassment and then to change that definition of I think those are the only two changes I think we can get to I think we can move to approve the new harassment sexual harassment policy with the two changes identified yeah I mean do we have them identified as the quid pro quo or we're just sort of well well what I wrote down quid pro quo is another form of sexual harassment where tangible job benefits are offered or withheld or withheld or offered withheld or threatened to be withheld in exchange for submitting acquiescing or non-reporting sexual favors that's great that's okay yeah I think that's fine okay so that's your motion do I have a second sexual favors or maybe are advances or or not that's why I asked if it should come back so that we make sure that we have all the verbiage in it yeah but it could come back forever I think we need to decide that's up to you all I'm just yeah sexual favors or advances yeah I think that would be a little all right okay yeah okay that's I mean it's clear um so you made a motion can I have a second second okay thank you Paul uh roll call vote Jill yes Paul yes Jerry Ellen abstain you're abstaining okay I don't think it's clear I mean I'd rather see it in writing when it when it's all
okay it may not be ready for prime time but it's almost ready for prime time it's almost almost it's not there I just need to have things go back and forth yeah I just rather it's an improvement I think over yeah okay yeah okay so when my motion passes but Mary Ellen you have stayed that's fine yeah that's fine I can that's um just for my plan is to actually have council review this to make but it's then I can always bring it back so it's this is not you know okay okay yeah I mean that's the way policies are you can always yeah they're always right you notice something oh we didn't mean to say that it always happened okay all right that's my all right so the then that's done the item is the open minutes for getting them together Jill I was writing a second version I was just I didn't know who had on the first page wait wait I'm sorry okay give me one second not there anymore okay it changes sorry and had you had a chance to look at the video on this one did I yeah I did not you didn't okay I don't need to have I but that's okay thank you um under announcement and public comments none we introduced day wasn't it your first meeting day January 20th yes so that was his first meeting and then we welcomed him I introduced and welcomed him and then he told us a little about his work background and his you know what he could add to the personal board or in relation to his personal years okay um so announcements and public comment we welcomed new member Dave Williams he gave us a short overview of his background and experience great
I thought we approved the we voted on the protection from retaliation and not the I don't think we had a sick leave policy in our agenda that time oh that must be a typo from another because it is right under the protection and it said you'll bring the state statute back to personnel board but then I have a vote so I thought we voted my apologies I clearly but I don't remember and I didn't know if we amended it or if we voted it as it was protection from retaliation I don't I don't think we voted on it yeah I don't think we voted on it so what do we vote on we have a vote and I had a vote and she had a vote we both had in our minutes if there was a vote I brought my notes but my notes are like I wasn't taking minutes they are even when I take minutes I have Jill made a motion and I have it on the page that says protection from retaliation all employees and at the bottom I have Jill made a motion false seconded and we all voted yes all of us and I have it on this page so yeah did we vote to bring it back it was modified I can't even find the minutes it tracks the law I don't know and then there was the thing about the state statute what were the state statute on maybe we had said she would bring the state statute back and then we decided not to and I took the note but but then did not because maybe you do have a vote it's on the page with the thing itself so maybe they discussed bringing the state statute back to check out the state statute on a question I don't know but it was it was determined to approve it was a vote on the draft policy yeah was the vote to take it back is that what the vote was on the draft oh it was I don't know if it was as I what my question was I was going to watch the video to see if it was as submitted or as amended but I didn't see any amendments on the policy usually usually I'll cross something out or something but then I have a but you have your note I
or it was a draft policy did we approve it is that me bringing back the state statute about sexual harassment and not about protection for retaliation it was the whistleblower protection oh okay it was and maybe you were going to bring back the statute or check the statute but it's the whistleblower protection act and might have been in regards to a question but I mean we have to you're right I think we're going to do as we can and then someone can watch the video and we can amend it if needed I can do that okay and then you'll amend it as whatever you see on the video because Kate told me it's on WACAM already yes this one's on WACAM okay so that's on WACAM that's great all right thank you and my apologies okay so I have a motion to approve the minutes as amended motion to approve the minutes as amended so moved is that what you want yeah thank you Mary Ellen I'm taking minutes but all right roll call vote Paul yes Mary Ellen yes Dave yes Jill yes Mary Ann yes okay the next item is do we have personnel board members reports and concerns are there any okay next meeting date we said that the fire chief would come in June and go over the fire study with us it's a long study it makes a lot a lot of recommendations I have a lot of problems with the way they some of the data they averaged things with larger towns than ours so our budget was less less than average but we were a smaller town but by and large their recommendations all around safety and staffing and so big it's a big study to look at and even for the town to deal with so that it will be good to have the fire chief come and discuss it with us and I don't know I know that that the fire chief suggested that there be put a working committee together with somebody with the fire chief somebody from union maybe the assistant fire chief someone from the select board someone from personnel and I don't know if he meant personnel staff or personnel board and then a citizen to put together a working committee so I don't know what he has in mind about whether we participate or not but it would be good for us to hear the study and also to I had a lot of questions based on what I was reading so so if you could take the time to read it it is lengthy it's 107 pages with a lot of recommendations and some would be things that you know the town will want to do immediately and some things they'll have to decide are we going in this direction what direction are we going in yeah Marianne is it possible to send the link out you know just to easy to click because I didn't find it so easy to find okay and I didn't look at the fire I just took the chief at his word that it was on the fire department site but I got mine from the select boards packet from last Monday and when I went to download it and saw how large it was I couldn't get it I couldn't get a condensed version of it I couldn't get my machine to do anything but so I didn't download it yeah all right so that means we want a date in June that would accommodate the fire chief are there other policies that we can get to work on in June we said we'd like to do them in the summer and I'm going to say if we're if we're meeting with the firefighter and he's presenting a hundred and something page recommendations I'm going to guess that that would take two hours I don't know he did a quick presentation to the select board I don't know but if we had questions we could ask a question so it might it might take a longer time than his presentation to the select board because they admitted that they hadn't read it some of them had started it yeah so I don't know but I don't want us to not get the policies done the summer can be a good time or a bad time you're having a graduation so we have to think about scheduling was earlier in June better later later in June is better okay and when could the fire chief come do you have any dates that he can
yeah yeah that's for me I don't know how about you guys I'm going to be in Florida but I can do it remote okay great Florida in June that's hot I know that's hot it's the absolute worst time it just happens it's between when my daughter finishes school and when she
what day of the week so yeah any anything works for me if you want to shoot for Wednesday again which is your pattern or Tuesday or Wednesday Mary Ellen Mary Ellen won't be here 24th yeah I think it depends on when it works for the chief right yeah I mean the 4 o'clock usually works okay for him but I will double check and if it's I mean Wednesdays are always good so Wednesday is June 24th yeah is that okay with everyone is 4 p.m. still a good time for us yeah and I think it you know I think it would be good in person if we're going to be doing any policies just because it's easier to do those I'll try sitting yeah if not we have to have a remote it's okay but you'll be remote Mary Ellen may be remote she said she won't be here you won't be here Mary Ellen for sure when is my term over it's whenever if you're not re-upping it's whenever they find somebody no you're you're fibbing but June 30th you're here June 30th okay all right yeah well that's different now you're making me look at that day well thank you for your service thank you Ellen I know I'm expecting a red star from my forehead and a pin but no cake because you won't be here no no cake and I wasn't even looking for a chair or a watch but you know a watch yeah so the 24th I hopefully I hopefully that would be okay I do have something on the calendar here maybe I can move it around but I will let I should be okay okay great all right all right so there being no further business may I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn we're gonna fight over that one Paul right and Jill okay I'll do a vote Paul yes Ellen yes Jill yes Dave yes yes
This meeting has remote access. One may watch or participate remotely with a meeting link that can be found at When required by law or allowed by the chair, and it will be allowed by the chair, persons wishing to provide public comment or otherwise participate in a meeting may do so at the meeting location and or by remote access. Public comment is, they suggest public comment be limited to two minutes per person. We have in the room, we have a quorum, we have board members, Paul Morenberg, Jill Zukerman, Mary Ann Peabody, myself online. We have Mary Ellen Castagno, and Dave Williams is en route from Rhode Island and is hoping to get here as soon as possible. So I'll read the agenda for the public. Discussion and possible vote. Well, I'm sorry, first call to order and announcements. Discussion of possible vote on Wayland Firefighters, International Association of Firefighters, AFL-CIO, Local 1978, Vacation Carryover Requests, as outlined in Article 9-4, the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Then we will enter into executive session pursuant to Mass General Laws, Chapter 30A, Section 21A-3, to discuss a grievance at Step 2 with the Wayland Firefighters, IAFF-AFL-CIO Local 1978, pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 30A, Section 21A, to review and approve executive session minutes of 10-9-2025, and with the intent to hold such minutes. And we will return to open session and have a discussion and possible vote to recommend changes to personnel policy on sexual harassment. And then we will have a discussion and possible vote to elect a chair of the Personnel Board and a discussion and approval of open session meeting minutes of January 20th, 2026. And then any personnel board members' reports and concerns, set the next meeting date and adjourn. Also, at present at the meeting, we have Kate Ryan, who is our HR Director in the Town of Wayland, and she is also the meeting manager today. And online, we also have Neil McPherson, the Fire Chief. And one announcement I have is that I had placed an item on the agenda to review the fire staffing study, which we've all been waiting for for a long time. And it was on the agenda for the Select Board on Monday, and the Select Board decided to put together a working group under the town manager, but the Fire Chief has agreed to come and review with us the fire staffing study at our next meeting in June. And I will tell you all that you can find the fire staffing study, according to Chief McPherson, on the fire department part of the town website. I found it in the packet that the Select Board had this past week. It's about 107 pages. I've read most of it, but it's a long study. And so we look forward to hearing from you on that next month, Chief. The first item on the agenda that we will discuss is a possible vote on the Firefighters International Association to carry, for vacation, carryover requests. And this is something that happens every year because the firefighters have on their collective bargaining agreement that they come before the personnel board to talk about their vacation carryover. And so, Kate, you want to tell us about that? We have our list. We have everybody looks like they're within the normal limits of what the vacation carryover is, but why don't you give us an update? So in prior years, there's not really, the contract doesn't really explicitly state how much can be carried over and how can't much. However, there's been a practice of allowing carryover of equivalent of two weeks, which is four days and four nights. So that's where we're at. If you look at all of the requests here, all of those are under the four-day, four-night, two-week equivalent. I did neglect to mention that in the room is also Taylor Ziegler-Miller, the president of the Firefighters Association and Jack Stafford, a firefighter. Okay. So this is within the normal amount that are usually asked to carryover. And requested within the time frame. Correct. And they're requested within the time frame. And I know we had, last year, we had a late request. Did that person know that everything had to be in by May? We had an injury after the weekend. Oh, okay. All right. So, okay. So, he had thought he would be using. Exactly. Okay. He thought he had time to use it and then didn't. Okay. So, everybody has, who wanted to request vacation carryover has. Okay. Okay. No.
If I may, I think in the past, the board has tend to approve these types of requests with the caveat that they are used within six months of the fiscal year. Right. We've been July. We've generally asked that they be used by December 31st, 2026. Does anyone have any input or questions about these requests? Oh, the chief is on there. I don't know if he wants to jump in. Again, I would just say that I think we put this out. Thank you to the firefighters for responding in a timely fashion. I believe we have a complete list at this point in time. You'll see that the overall numbers are in fact declining in terms of vacation carryover. Yeah, they're actually declining. So, people are using more of their vacation and we have, in fact, in the past, sometimes put a caveat for people to use it within six months. That was more so done, though, for people who are carrying over more than four units, right, the week long. So, I'm not sure that we've necessarily put a cap on them if they were using under four days and four nights. I think we did last year. I think we capped all of it, yeah. We capped all of it last year. Yeah, we did. Does anyone have any thoughts? No? Okay. Do you want to cap, do you want to, someone make a motion, please?
Do you want to, it's going against the contract? There's no language present in that part. About capping? About capping. I think the reason that we're doing it was because we were talking that it was backing up really bad. So, we wanted people to take their vacations so that they... Well, yeah, I saw it for COVID because our vacations did not. Yeah. I think it was because Louise Miller actually asked for the cap and that was before COVID. She asked because there was so much, there was so much sick time that was accumulating. So, she asked for it, I think, in 2019 to cap it. So, I don't think it's... Do you think it needs to be going in, Kate? Well, I think the personnel board has voted to cap it in the past. I don't know that... I mean, that may constitute a practice but that's not a legal scholar when it comes to contracts. It's within our discretion to do it. So, I don't know because I do remember that what was happening was there was a lot every year and this is like within what people would say sure, you know. I think it's... I mean, what the chief is saying is reasonable. We want to be reasonable. We want people to carry over all of our other collective bargaining units are allowed to carry over at a minimum two weeks and also. So, the four days and four nights is equivalent to about two weeks for everyone else. I think people will be able to use it within the year so that we're not carrying it over next year. what do you think?
I mean, I'm not sure. What does the language say for the board? Does it say separate to the personal board's approval? Yeah. The carry over is up to our approval. I mean, that sounds like it could be approved with conditions, but I'm not sure. And I certainly don't want to see the union members have a bargain for right limited in an unfair way. So, are you okay with letting it float and see what happens? I mean, if we get it back. the chief has no problem with it and feels that it's manageable, I think let's keep it as unrestricted as possible. Okay. All right. So, can I have a motion? I could make a motion, but I would like to ask a question first, Marianne. I didn't see, raise your hand, but I can't see It's okay, Marianne, you didn't see me raise my hand because I couldn't find it on the screen, that's why. So, I just thought it would be best to speak up, so that's okay. But, the reason why they're carrying over is because they can't get somebody to cover for them because staffing is tight. I know that there were some firefighters that were out. Is that still the situation? Because there are lower numbers. I'm just, like everyone else, concerned that folks aren't getting their vacation. That's my question. So, if I can answer. Sure. Sure. The answer is this is not because we were not able to cover their shifts. This is because people were unable for various reasons to use their vacation time. So, it's not because we were not able to cover their shifts. And is nobody asking for pay on this one? No. No. It's just going to carry on. Okay. Great.
Okay.
The chief have any objections with the carry over vacation being used for an entire year? Was that the request?
Yeah. Rather than we were always limiting it to six months or we have in the past limited to six months. Do you have any objection to if we don't limit it to six months this time? I don't. I think, again, the six months becomes very important. If people are asking for more than the four and four, that we go ahead and we have a limitation that people have to use some of that time, but I don't necessarily with these numbers at this point think that we have to lock them into six months to use that time. Okay. All right. So the motion is I move to approve the vacation carryover that we've been given for the firefighters with no restrictions. I don't even think you have to add no restrictions. I don't know.
That's what I would do. I would just approve it. Yeah. Do I have a second? Okay. Roll call vote. Mary Ellen? Yes. Okay. Paul? Yes. Jill? Yes. Mary Ann? Yes. Okay. And now we will enter into I move that we enter into executive session pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 30A Section 21A3 to discuss a grievance at Step 2 with the firefighters IAFF AFL CIO Local 1978 and pursuant to Mass General Laws Chapter 30A Section 21A3 to review and approve executive session minutes of 10 8 2025 with the intent to hold said minutes because to do so in open session would now I don't have my wording with me but would may negatively impact have a negative impact on the on the town's bargaining bargaining ability Do we want to do this after the Step 2 grievance or I'm sorry I thought you were talking about that we're moving into executive section and to hear this Step 2 grievance I would invite Kate Ryan I would invite Taylor Ziegler Miller the president of the firefighters union local 1978 chief do you want to come into the executive session is he frozen no okay he's frozen he's frozen I'll invite him whether he wants to come or not and the grievance Jack Stafford to the part to hear the grievance and then you'll leave executive session and we'll stay in the session and then we will be back in open session what time is it probably by 5 19 do you think 5 20 for the public to go back into open session so keep looking if you want to come back to open session to see if we have returned to open session starting at 5 20 thank you now we go into executive sessions oh we need a roll call vote to go into executive session may I have a second okay okay Paul yes yes Mary Ellen yes okay Mary yes okay so oh there we are moving back to open session at 5 10 is it 5 10 still by the time we're here 5 12 Mary Ellen are you there we don't have Mary Ellen yet I am I am 5 12 I'm just hiding I'm here you have to unmute faster to open I try okay so we are back in open session and I was reminded that I forgot to ask for public comment at the beginning of the agenda so I will ask if there's any public comment can you see Kate sorry sorry I know if there is it'll be the first time yeah in my three years I've never in all the years even though the meetings were open we had participation by the public once once that I remember and they came because they were concerned about something but that was it just one okay yeah so I can't see everybody I can't see us but I don't see everybody can see us yep Kate we're not on what are they seeing I can only see Kate and Paul that's right that's okay yeah that's all right so okay great thank you I will ask is there any public comment Kate there is not no public comment okay what is okay so the next agenda item is discussion impossible vote to elect the chair of the personnel board I put it on here knowing that it's the time of year we have to do
I I don't know that I have time to do that but yeah I are you willing to continue on as chair I'm willing to continue but you know somebody should take over I shouldn't be always the same I don't mind doing it it's not heavy lifting but if you find that you don't have the time I will do it it's not my preferred thing would be to rotate it a bit but if you guys you
and okay all right so I will consider I mean you want to vote all in favor and you're making the recommendation right okay I just passed the whole thing as the personal board chair for life yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean should in all fairness should we do like six months is that reasonable practice and then we can revisit it we can revisit it term no a lot of well so some of the work I do is on boards and it's good practice to rotate okay and I've been on the board for a lot of years and haven't rotated a lot which is you know not something I think that should happen too but being chair some boards nobody wants to do it and one person is willing and it keeps it but it is
wayland town boards do they have like a general term for a chair or anything some do and some it's just board by board sometimes nobody will do it and sometimes other one person has more time free than other people so they'll do it even even co-chairs I think some yeah they do co-chairs you want to be co-chair this year in case I mean I would feel comfortable in six months revisiting the thought once like my son is settled and all right okay so we'll say from June to where we visit in January we used to change in the end of the year fiscal year and then we realized everybody else in town does it right after town meeting so we changed it all right so first for six months and then we can revisit it so Kate remind us to revisit it so Mary Ellen you made the motion I second it Jill with great enthusiasm Paul yes yes yes Dave yes me yes you have to ask me you have to ask me I didn't tell Jill yes I seconded it I seconded oh that's right I didn't roll call you I'm sorry I just I wasn't sure she did Mary Ellen Mary Ellen moved it so I just have a question so it's going to be revisited as to you know election again in six months for co-chair I mean for a chair but what did you decide on a co-chair for this group no yes you want to have a co-chair I think at the moment Paul can't do it I think that in six months well I think that okay okay reasonable for me it's okay we have open session minutes so we voted on that right so it's five two zero oh yeah we voted okay excuse me I think we may have jumped over the policy I did we jumped over the policy which is what we need to do it's personnel policy 8251 sexual harassment so that's the next agenda item sorry I didn't make it in big print yeah it's the redlined version and then there's yeah there was a redlined version and then a version after it does anyone shall we go over the clear version of it are the pages numbered page 21 right well it would be off I don't I've read the mark okay does anyone have we can walk through it does anyone have any comments on the harassment sexual harassment policy I'm looking at I guess I left the other version home so I just have the it's okay if I may just sort of jump in this is the second time this is coming to you the board discussed it a couple of months ago it's in my notes January January there you go so that's irrelevant that your minutes are coming up so the goal here is to combine basically sexual harassment with harassment discrimination a larger policy which seems to be more the industry trend not just in the municipal sector but across the board to have one policy that kind of talks about all different types of harassment discrimination and sexual harassment is just one of those so that's the goal and I'm pretty sure I included a couple of sample policies if I maybe it was just the first time you gave it us we we had this stuff from pv law I mean kp law does anyone have any comments on it any comments okay go ahead paul no no go ahead paul yeah so the way this was edited on page two where we now have a harassment section and then a sexual harassment section so one and two under sexual harassment are well actually okay so the the first part of the definition of sexual harassment unwelcome sexual advances requests for sexual favors that's definitely unique to sexual harassment then the the the numbered items the submission to such conduct that's I would also be sexual harassment and that's as would two but number three like the hostile work environment concept could apply to non sexual harassment I don't know if you want to also repeat that in the preceding section somehow good idea I think this is the statutory so that's why these three pieces are in here but yeah no that's a good that's a good point it is relevant to harassment so Paul you're asking for that to be put under both sections right for harassment and sexual I agree with you or actually so like if you go further down where it says hostile work environment is a form of sexual harassment where pervasive and sexually hostile working conditions reasonably interfere with the employee's ability to do his or her job that could be item three under harassment I agree I agree so are you suggesting I thought you were suggesting moving number three up to the portion on just harassment but then hostile work environment would be number four right or no he's saying that use the verbiage and make that number three yeah oh okay oh I see right yeah okay yeah yeah so we're moving hostile work environment under harassment under number three harassment or are we changing okay we are moving that up to number three all right but I think making leaving it in both sections but modifying that to fit well hostile work environment can be a form of sexual harassment okay yeah but is it a form or can it be a form I'm sorry so hostile work environment is a form of sexual harassment or can be a form uh well it is a form it is a form of sexual harassment okay it could also it could also occur in a non-sexual context yeah right that's what okay so you'd put it under both places or just I would put it in both places okay yeah I agree with him so my question was is that when because these are now combined say an employee was looking just for harassment do you have a look up um that if he just a person put harassment in this policy would come up so uh yes and no we just well the no is that we just transitioned to a brand new um website and so things are a little jumbled around some of the links aren't active so we're working on that but yes that is the goal to have all of this searchable and findable on the website okay and you're right that new website is a little confusing because it takes where the other one took maybe two clicks this has taken three and four clicks to get information that's what I found when I was looking over the weekend and quid pro quo is definitely under sexual harassment correct yes yeah well yeah actually I don't know if this is worth revising but this definition is a little awkward it's usually phrases where the submission to there's not a form of sexual harassment or tangible job benefits are offered or withheld in exchange for but it could also be it's broader than that it could be where it could be the threat of that potential job benefits or or or or the threat of yeah are offered or withheld or threatened to be withheld yeah based on based on either an exchange for I don't know that phrase exchange for sexual favor is also kind of it's usually sort of submitting to or acquiescing to or I don't know let's see if I can look up some language here real quick I would use both of those terms because it would be different yeah that language actually comes directly from or almost directly from the KP law version that's where the language actually their language is a little clearer yeah so the MCAD model policy says that sexual harassment means sexual advances requests for sexual favors in verbal or physical conduct when submission to or rejection of such advances requests or conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of employment or as a basis for employment decision or such advances requests or conduct the purpose of or effective unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance by creating intimidating hostile humiliating or sexually offensive work environment is that the quid pro that's it they mix it together I will work at that I mean I think it's okay I mean quid pro quo is still used but I think MCAD actually doesn't use it in the current policy not sure why but so do you feel like that would prevent you from approving no I think it's a little awkward but I think it's okay I think it's okay leave it as is or change it or offered or withheld or threatened to be withheld yeah I thought your verbi of submitting or acquiescing to sexual favors was better I think it was although it probably stands as is but you can always bring it back to yeah I mean you're saying in exchange for submitting to acquiescing or not reporting I don't know yeah or not reporting yeah sexual favors or sexual advances something like that can I make a motion to table this and take it back with I think we can finish it I think the changes were to add that third under harassment that hostile work environment under harassment onto sexual harassment and then to change that definition of I think those are the only two changes I think we can get to I think we can move to approve the new harassment sexual harassment policy with the two changes identified yeah I mean do we have them identified as the quid pro quo or we're just sort of well well what I wrote down quid pro quo is another form of sexual harassment where tangible job benefits are offered or withheld or withheld or offered withheld or threatened to be withheld in exchange for submitting acquiescing or non-reporting sexual favors that's great that's okay yeah I think that's fine okay so that's your motion do I have a second sexual favors or maybe are advances or or not that's why I asked if it should come back so that we make sure that we have all the verbiage in it yeah but it could come back forever I think we need to decide that's up to you all I'm just yeah sexual favors or advances yeah I think that would be a little all right okay yeah okay that's I mean it's clear um so you made a motion can I have a second second okay thank you Paul uh roll call vote Jill yes Paul yes Jerry Ellen abstain you're abstaining okay I don't think it's clear I mean I'd rather see it in writing when it when it's all
okay it may not be ready for prime time but it's almost ready for prime time it's almost almost it's not there I just need to have things go back and forth yeah I just rather it's an improvement I think over yeah okay yeah okay so when my motion passes but Mary Ellen you have stayed that's fine yeah that's fine I can that's um just for my plan is to actually have council review this to make but it's then I can always bring it back so it's this is not you know okay okay yeah I mean that's the way policies are you can always yeah they're always right you notice something oh we didn't mean to say that it always happened okay all right that's my all right so the then that's done the item is the open minutes for getting them together Jill I was writing a second version I was just I didn't know who had on the first page wait wait I'm sorry okay give me one second not there anymore okay it changes sorry and had you had a chance to look at the video on this one did I yeah I did not you didn't okay I don't need to have I but that's okay thank you um under announcement and public comments none we introduced day wasn't it your first meeting day January 20th yes so that was his first meeting and then we welcomed him I introduced and welcomed him and then he told us a little about his work background and his you know what he could add to the personal board or in relation to his personal years okay um so announcements and public comment we welcomed new member Dave Williams he gave us a short overview of his background and experience great
I thought we approved the we voted on the protection from retaliation and not the I don't think we had a sick leave policy in our agenda that time oh that must be a typo from another because it is right under the protection and it said you'll bring the state statute back to personnel board but then I have a vote so I thought we voted my apologies I clearly but I don't remember and I didn't know if we amended it or if we voted it as it was protection from retaliation I don't I don't think we voted on it yeah I don't think we voted on it so what do we vote on we have a vote and I had a vote and she had a vote we both had in our minutes if there was a vote I brought my notes but my notes are like I wasn't taking minutes they are even when I take minutes I have Jill made a motion and I have it on the page that says protection from retaliation all employees and at the bottom I have Jill made a motion false seconded and we all voted yes all of us and I have it on this page so yeah did we vote to bring it back it was modified I can't even find the minutes it tracks the law I don't know and then there was the thing about the state statute what were the state statute on maybe we had said she would bring the state statute back and then we decided not to and I took the note but but then did not because maybe you do have a vote it's on the page with the thing itself so maybe they discussed bringing the state statute back to check out the state statute on a question I don't know but it was it was determined to approve it was a vote on the draft policy yeah was the vote to take it back is that what the vote was on the draft oh it was I don't know if it was as I what my question was I was going to watch the video to see if it was as submitted or as amended but I didn't see any amendments on the policy usually usually I'll cross something out or something but then I have a but you have your note I
or it was a draft policy did we approve it is that me bringing back the state statute about sexual harassment and not about protection for retaliation it was the whistleblower protection oh okay it was and maybe you were going to bring back the statute or check the statute but it's the whistleblower protection act and might have been in regards to a question but I mean we have to you're right I think we're going to do as we can and then someone can watch the video and we can amend it if needed I can do that okay and then you'll amend it as whatever you see on the video because Kate told me it's on WACAM already yes this one's on WACAM okay so that's on WACAM that's great all right thank you and my apologies okay so I have a motion to approve the minutes as amended motion to approve the minutes as amended so moved is that what you want yeah thank you Mary Ellen I'm taking minutes but all right roll call vote Paul yes Mary Ellen yes Dave yes Jill yes Mary Ann yes okay the next item is do we have personnel board members reports and concerns are there any okay next meeting date we said that the fire chief would come in June and go over the fire study with us it's a long study it makes a lot a lot of recommendations I have a lot of problems with the way they some of the data they averaged things with larger towns than ours so our budget was less less than average but we were a smaller town but by and large their recommendations all around safety and staffing and so big it's a big study to look at and even for the town to deal with so that it will be good to have the fire chief come and discuss it with us and I don't know I know that that the fire chief suggested that there be put a working committee together with somebody with the fire chief somebody from union maybe the assistant fire chief someone from the select board someone from personnel and I don't know if he meant personnel staff or personnel board and then a citizen to put together a working committee so I don't know what he has in mind about whether we participate or not but it would be good for us to hear the study and also to I had a lot of questions based on what I was reading so so if you could take the time to read it it is lengthy it's 107 pages with a lot of recommendations and some would be things that you know the town will want to do immediately and some things they'll have to decide are we going in this direction what direction are we going in yeah Marianne is it possible to send the link out you know just to easy to click because I didn't find it so easy to find okay and I didn't look at the fire I just took the chief at his word that it was on the fire department site but I got mine from the select boards packet from last Monday and when I went to download it and saw how large it was I couldn't get it I couldn't get a condensed version of it I couldn't get my machine to do anything but so I didn't download it yeah all right so that means we want a date in June that would accommodate the fire chief are there other policies that we can get to work on in June we said we'd like to do them in the summer and I'm going to say if we're if we're meeting with the firefighter and he's presenting a hundred and something page recommendations I'm going to guess that that would take two hours I don't know he did a quick presentation to the select board I don't know but if we had questions we could ask a question so it might it might take a longer time than his presentation to the select board because they admitted that they hadn't read it some of them had started it yeah so I don't know but I don't want us to not get the policies done the summer can be a good time or a bad time you're having a graduation so we have to think about scheduling was earlier in June better later later in June is better okay and when could the fire chief come do you have any dates that he can
yeah yeah that's for me I don't know how about you guys I'm going to be in Florida but I can do it remote okay great Florida in June that's hot I know that's hot it's the absolute worst time it just happens it's between when my daughter finishes school and when she
what day of the week so yeah any anything works for me if you want to shoot for Wednesday again which is your pattern or Tuesday or Wednesday Mary Ellen Mary Ellen won't be here 24th yeah I think it depends on when it works for the chief right yeah I mean the 4 o'clock usually works okay for him but I will double check and if it's I mean Wednesdays are always good so Wednesday is June 24th yeah is that okay with everyone is 4 p.m. still a good time for us yeah and I think it you know I think it would be good in person if we're going to be doing any policies just because it's easier to do those I'll try sitting yeah if not we have to have a remote it's okay but you'll be remote Mary Ellen may be remote she said she won't be here you won't be here Mary Ellen for sure when is my term over it's whenever if you're not re-upping it's whenever they find somebody no you're you're fibbing but June 30th you're here June 30th okay all right yeah well that's different now you're making me look at that day well thank you for your service thank you Ellen I know I'm expecting a red star from my forehead and a pin but no cake because you won't be here no no cake and I wasn't even looking for a chair or a watch but you know a watch yeah so the 24th I hopefully I hopefully that would be okay I do have something on the calendar here maybe I can move it around but I will let I should be okay okay great all right all right so there being no further business may I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn we're gonna fight over that one Paul right and Jill okay I'll do a vote Paul yes Ellen yes Jill yes Dave yes yes