September 17, 2025 – Housing Partnership – Video & Transcript
September 17, 2025 - Housing Partnership
Mary Antes: Well before being
taken so on may watch, I'll
participate remotely in the
meeting. Link that can be found
meeting
and soon after the meeting. This is practical. So participating Jackie Espiritusanto-Vega I messed it up every time. I can spell it. You can just do data if that's what I would work Jim Grumbach and the meeting Unknown: There does not appear to be any public comment. Thank you for taking the minutes. Jim Grumbach: You're welcome. You know, look, I haven't done it for a while. so I think you guys have been very Rachel Bratt: quickly so you can do it next time. Jim Grumbach: I'm not going Mary Antes: review the minutes of the last meeting. August 13. Jim has sent his corrections, any others or can go through and tell you what Jim did, if you don't have it, whatever. Unknown: They was nothing. was. It was all minor. Mary Antes: So, yeah, an apostrophe there. Rachel Bratt: I just, since I wasn't at the last meeting, I did not notice Cascade was doing 16 ownership
Mary Antes: House meeting that Robert home, Unknown: also, they're back to ownership from and they've increased the number of bedrooms from the original class. Okay, they were originally at 89 or something, and now they're somewhere over 90. That was part of when they went back, when they appealed our ruling, our the zoning board's ruling, which, which granted the special permit, but with conditions, they appealed it to. It was then eocd, and as a settlement, they agreed to put in a their own wastewater plant, and they also went from own units to rental units. So apparently, Rachel Bratt: they've gone back to which means I assume that it's 40 B only 25% discount for your subs has an industry inventory, and that the rest will be market rate, presumably compass. Unknown: Okay, and this is the old, actually, this is Mary Antes: the former Mahoney's. Thank you. Jackie, Jackie, I Rachel Bratt: said, Jackie, motion Unknown: then to I Mary Antes: move to approve amendment and I second it all right, all in favor of Jackie, yes. Kathy, yes. Rachel, yes. Okay. Updates, I know I had an email from Catherine today saying she missed the last meeting and that Jean would be able to tell us more 212
If she's here, Rachel Bratt: I have no right. You can have Katherine's online.
I think Jean had said she couldn't come. Jean over a light tickets are right, and I you haven't heard Mary Antes: I heard from Katherine today. She did not say she would not be here. we talked about some other things, including saying that Jean would probably have more information on she would. But I meant. Mentioned that at the Housing Trust meeting last night, Mike Staiti, who has been on the 212 Committee, said that he really doesn't have expertise in group homes and the people who take care of them, or anything like that. His expertise is in construction and permitting and all of that. So he resigned. The Trust has nominated Brian Boucher. Jim Grumbach: He resigned from Mary Antes: the 212 Jim Grumbach: oh, I see okay. Mary Antes: And we were recommending Brian be in his place. Janot Mendler de Suarez: And so Brian and Katherine will be on the 212 committee.
Mary Antes: And that asked about Mike would make himself available whenever they needed his kind of expertise, which is a good thing, because he's heard he's a contractor and was very knowledgeable of that stuff. But Shepherd, Rachel Bratt: well, Ah, man, I don't really know what to say. It seems like things are just dragging. As Mary knows, I've gotten some information back from the developer of the Good Shepherd Parish, and is the Planning Office of Urban Affairs. It's a nonprofit arm of the Archdiocese of lost a approval power, and they do all the development for archdiocese. They've been very, very into it. They've been very thorough. It seems like there is a hang up at our conservation commission, and I, honestly, I got as far today as trying to print out the stuff that he sent me, because he sent me five documents. He meeting the man at Hope. Philip is his name. He sent me these five documents, trying to get through them, looking at what the orders of conditions are that they're requesting from the state. The state and the Conservation Commission, apparently have not come to an understanding yet, and I just I can read to you what Philip wrote. I don't fully understand all of this stuff. Unknown: Well, maybe, maybe we could help you, but no guarantee. Rachel Bratt: Thank you for so I'm just gonna read my note to Philip yesterday, which is what I typically do when I'm supposed to give an update as I write to the person who's physically going to do that. And I said, that doesn't matter what I said. I said, what's happening? Hi Rachel, we met EO. EOHLC, that's the Executive Office of Housing and political communities and mass housing, to figure out where St Anne's slots into the future funding to EOL. EOLHC was hesitant as to a ballpark time frame as they wanted more clarity regarding the appeal of DEP is superseding order of conditions from the Conservation Commission. So again, this is the Department of Environmental Protection at the state, I guess, assessing the Conservation Commissions, superseding order of conditions. I hope these just enough. Jim Grumbach: My understanding is when the State wetlands, I think that's what it is, the state wetlands bylaws, as opposed to the town bylaws, when there are certain times when the state comes into play and it may override the town, and it sounds to me like they did, and then has the right, automatic right to appeal. Rachel Bratt: So helpful. Jim Grumbach: I think procedurally, that's that's kind of, yes, it's sort of a preemption argument where the state Rachel Bratt: until it's resolved, eohl isn't going to give us a date, but our target construction start is Q1, of Qt versus second quarter of 2026 otherwise we're doing what we can to be ready to move to construction once we have a better understanding of when we can close on construction loan. And then here's some background on the conservation issue. Maybe this is also illuminating. We spent over a year with ConCom, though most of the time was related to coordination with the peer reviewer, between between ConCom and both Board of Health. The order of conditions was issued in November included several unexpected and problematic conditions, which led us to file an appeal. We had made clear to conservation and Town Manager our intent to withdraw the appeal once an amendment order of conditions was drafted, but conservation never acted. The appeal concluded that DEP issued a more favorable superseding Order, order of conditions, after which conservation voted to appeal further. They've since indicated a willingness to discuss settlement, and we're hopeful this could be resolved in the coming weeks. And
Unknown: then so now it's between the DEP and ConCom not EOHLC. Rachel Bratt: I think that's right, okay. And then I think the other thing that I had gotten from him in some other email was we've been approved for the federal tax credits, which is the main subsudy that happened quite a few months ago, I don't think. But there's also an issue of getting state bonds from Mass Housing, because the bonds that we get from Mass Housing also help to reduce the cost of construction. And I think in another email that I had gotten from him, he said that EOL was reluctant to give us a timeline on that until everything else was so but you know, we're in the queue for everything. And you know, these guys are so capable and competent and patient, but it's just taking Jim Grumbach: well, isn't, isn't Jean over now on ConCom, Unknown: or no, she, we are hoping that she, that ConCom will appoint her to this committee Jim Grumbach: but she's not. Oh, I see So, so she's not a member of ConCom. Okay, it would be helpful to know somebody. I don't even know, who's that, who's the Chair of ConCom? used to be Sherre Greenbaum Mary Antes: It's Sean Fair, Rachel Bratt: fair, okay, I mean, Linda Hanson is obviously the one person who writes all of the superseding order of conditions. I mean, I've got all these documents here that she has signed, but it's
Unknown: I could try. Paul Sean, I mean, I sat with him on the zoning board for a year or two. I mean, that was decades. Rachel Bratt: Anyway, you know, whatever's going on seems to be at our end, local level, local problem the state. You know federal credits are lined up. The state knows we need to be in the queue for the mass housing, not the Unknown: state either. More favorable ruling is that you said Rachel Bratt: yes. That sounds Unknown: like another local issue with ConCom. Yeah. Rachel Bratt: And I did try to figure out what it was with the sticking points, but I didn't have time to go through this, and it's pretty dense. And, you know, we have two lawyers here. Unknown: This is, well, Tom, if you're, if you're giving up on it and you want to give it to me, I'll take it. Rachel Bratt: But otherwise, I think we don't have to honestly. I wanted to know I wanted to know more about it. I got as far as trying to print this stuff. I think what Philip has written to us probably suffices for our Unknown: minutes. Well, be nice to know from ConCom, what's the Rachel Bratt: sticking point? If you're okay, that would be great if we can get more information or lean on him a little bit. But
it just would be nice to get this resolved and to break ground by the first or second quarter of 2026 somebody from the church said this was was asking me about it from good shepherd. And she said, Well, she wasn't sure the current priest is quite as supportive as our friend David holiday. And I said it really was out of the church's hands at this point that the archia, since had approved it, the developers would name. I sound true to go along with it, but it is not in his camp at this point, either for or against. He's just kind of inherited. So I don't know anything about that. It's just hearsay a member of the church.
Mary Antes: It's whatever you find out from Tom Tom, if there's something we should do, Unknown: like write a letter, Jim Grumbach: yeah, I will notify you, Rachel Bratt: and then we'll let you decide
Unknown: we must know a different Jim Brownback, I'm looking to delegate Rachel Bratt: tonight. The big item is ADU.
Unknown: Forum.
Rachel Bratt: Kathy, why don't you start?
Unknown: So I think Rachel sent out a second on the final,
Rachel Bratt: third draft proposed. Unknown: This is where we basically went to Planning Board to get their tie in and collaborate Rachel Bratt: a couple of copies, if anybody
Mary Antes: needs it. Part of the comments Unknown: on that. This is the, this is the, this is the blown up version, yeah, unless you Well, this is clean. Rachel Bratt: Oh, I think you Unknown: somehow differently. So,
yeah, the final one in March is date 16 that's covered. Rachel, can I have a problem? Please?
Yes. Anyway, as a result of that, in that prior meeting, we talked about meeting with Anette, informally. And then we went back to Anette with, you know, responding to her concerns, and Robin and we went to the planning board meeting, and, oh, you were both there, I think Jim and Mary. Jim Grumbach: And who's Robin for yourself? Sorry, I think she's Unknown: a chair now Jim Grumbach: she Oh, Rachel Bratt: she's the chair, I think. And I think that I could be wrong
attorney, and she is now the representative. Unknown: She's definitely been delegated on this issue. Rachel Bratt: She had also sponsored. Haven't she been the one to speak a town meeting on the ADU bylaw? Unknown: Do we recall that? No, that is correct. She presented it so she Rachel Bratt: then, kind of now has inherited on the planning board being their spokesperson. Unknown: Okay. Thank so anyway, I mean, I'm not sure that there's so many generations we went back and forth with, we made a very concerted effort to address their concerns. And we, you know, a lot of it, I think, was wordsmithing. I think a lot of it was says to me, it was taking things too literally and getting feeling like we're putting them in a box where I don't think we were, but, you know, again, Rachel been bad with and we made lots of concessions, and it was fine. I mean, it was an agreeable kind of process. I think whenever you're Rachel Bratt: dealing with multiple committees trying to write a document, it's gets difficult, and what came out of it, I think, is fine and clear and satisfactory to go forward now. Unknown: And we gave them things, as far as you know, we gave them the order, we changed the order we had originally. I think what we used previously was, you know, I think seen a document where we, think we shared this before, where we essentially were talking about, you know, the introduction, the overview of the legal product regulations, and then we were going to talk about construction and identifying personnel and that, I think, did react, there was some reaction to that. They didn't want anybody identified who would, in fact, be somebody working for Wayland, or from Wayland who would be a contractor. And I don't know that that's cast in stone, but this is the days of the issue. We had raised DEP sacred name, and a name. And I think Jimmy would mention before when melody, and we didn't even put wind forward as a name at this point, and and basically they didn't want names identified, which was okay, so. So we essentially Rachel Bratt: potential contractors and private business people. And there's Unknown: no reason these people can't participate in the forum, but they won't be identified, as I understand it, as people on the panel, person Rachel Bratt: right, and they can, essentially, they pitch for their product, or they pitch for their right. So that Unknown: we understood that. We haven't Rachel Bratt: sanitized that, yeah. Unknown: And then the now, the septic issues were obviously a concern to the planning board and Title Five, no, we realize it's going to be addressed, that it's an issue. And then we basically took what I think we talked about at our last meeting, which was the brainstorming idea of how to promote affordable ADUs, and we put it as the last panel in part. I mean, I think our pitch to what was talking to with Rachel was the idea that we would gain on a advocacy note, a positive note, a strategy for action. And people leave because we can't get everything done and now, so what the people who will stay will be the people who perhaps are committed to this, or have an interest in this and whatever. But instead of talking about seeing who's gonna end
Rachel Bratt: up front, and that will take most of the hour and a half, presumably, and then the next steps of a ad use when we get to it, or we'll defer to another meeting. So, so what would the next step of where we are is Kathy and I would start, should start contacting the various other people who are supposed to be part of this little planning group. So right now, the planning group for the forum it consists of Kathy Lee and Robin, but we want to start recruiting now. Building Board of Health assess, the conservation Housing Trust, Housing Authority, DEP, new human rights. We'll be looking for as many of these folks as possible to co sponsor this kind of Tom, when it gets advertised, they would all be listed along with the planning board in the house of partnership as co sponsors of the forum. So I think the next step is for us to call email each of those people on that list, and you know, we're now in a position where we can send this to them and describe what we're doing. The date is tentatively set to November 12. Does that work for us?
Mary Antes: Somehow, the 12th is in the back of my mind as a 2/50 event,
Rachel Bratt: then it turns out, for me, the fifth would be better. The fifth would be better for various reasons that the planning board had come up with the 12th because that was a regularly scheduled meeting of theirs. But as for me, I would love to make it the fifth. The things we need to do are, obviously get the co sponsors and line up people for the panels. Unknown: And I think when we're talking about co sponsors, we're not talking about this. This is a done deal at this point. We're not going back right to do what we did with Rachel Bratt: this was the planning board and Robert humble, who waited today, basically, I couldn't move this document into the planning board, and Robert had given me okay. It's been done for I don't know my first draft was two weeks ago, probably yes, but Robert was on vacation, and it just took time, and you just have to kind of wait it Unknown: out. So are the co sponsors of people that are Rachel Bratt: mentioned, yes, bullet, those are the people that we will be recruiting to be co Unknown: sponsors. So that's the boh, the building department, the assessor, Housing Authority, obviously, Katherine, I don't think there's much question with the Housing Authority and the Housing Trust. St Mary works pretty regularly with Mike, that's not a problem. Rachel Bratt: I don't know whether we didn't put the select Word down on this. Should they be just actually sponsored? Unknown: I think they should and and you know what I can do. I can I can contact when I contact Sean Fay, I can, I can ask him to be a co sponsor. They mentioned Rachel Bratt: Tom Okay. Who did we have down? Unknown: We have Linda Hanson, okay, and I don't know her. I, I can always ask him. That contact. Rachel Bratt: I guess I didn't put, I didn't even think to put a select board down, but maybe we should make an overture and see if they're interested. Jim Grumbach: I think, I think we should. Rachel Bratt: So I think the next you're going to contact Sean Fay Unknown: and ConCom on the palette issue. But I can Rachel Bratt: also solicit Jim Grumbach: his interest if he Rachel Bratt: says, Dr Linda, of course we also need a representative on ConCom for one of the panels. Is that not listed? Maybe it's not listed. Just be. So it's just, it's just asking for his endorsement, you know, the endorsement of conservation. Because, yes, there, there are wetlands issues, there are possible issues involved with ConCom. So they're not going to be a panelist, I guess, but it's like appropriate to have them on board. Mary Antes: Maybe
Rachel Bratt: some other things expect attorney brought Unknown: back to Well, I think the other thing we could do, if we wanted, is we could say we've planned out the meeting and we have some panels. Would anybody from these boards be interested? Rachel Bratt: Well, I think you have to do much, yes, too much, because the panels can't be that big. Jim Grumbach: Okay, so I'm not gonna, you're not Rachel Bratt: asking them. You're just, I'm not Jim Grumbach: gonna ask them. I'll just add some notes. You know, if you Mary Antes: have two or three that you could ask about opponent, Jean, Rachel Bratt: oh, there you go. Another another task. You appointing gene to as a representative. So you've got three things. It sounds like, okay, so I have to.
Unknown: So one is power. Two is sponsor, Rachel Bratt: sponsored, co sponsor, along with many other town boards, co sponsor Unknown: the forum. And the third is appoint gene Rachel Bratt: as as a ConCom.
Mary Antes: I have talked with Linda about this. I've sent her several reminders so it's not new to her. I don't know Jim Grumbach: this is a representative to this committee. Yes,
Mary Antes: we haven't had a representative from the conservation for two years, three years.
Jim Grumbach: Okay, Rachel Bratt: okay, so thank you for being patient. Thank you. Thank you for doing so. We do need to contact now, Mary, you're gonna, did you say would contact the Select Board Mary Antes: again and Rachel Bratt: let them know about this? Why don't you just say, I haven't checked the date of November 5 with the planning board, their tentative date was the 12th. Yeah, that's what I have in mind. But maybe if you can open up the fifth or the 12th and see what what their availability is, and you're going to double check if there's something on the 2/50 that would be a deal. Perfect. The 19th gets too close to Thanksgiving, and then after Thanksgiving, it's not a good time with Christmas. The holidays. Nobody wants to plan December. So if we didn't make it in November, we'd having to push it into January, which would be what we would do. Would be what it's what we would do. It's what we'd have to be the 12th of January. You know, early in January. But okay, so can we actually go through this Cathy just quickly? Who's going to call whom we've got the ConCom set? So Jim is going to do that. Select the word is married
Unknown: sport of health, building, building, what do you Rachel Bratt: want to do? Who do you want to call that? I think I had Unknown: Juliet and Rachel Bratt: Nathan, so Board of Health and Nathan and Kathy and the assessor is doing that. Am I doing that? Okay, so we have that assessor and DPW all do actually Jackie's on the Housing Trust. I'll. Local Chair of the House interest you
Unknown: think Mike's gonna wanna? You think Mike's gonna want to do that?
I mean, they don't have to do anything. It's certainly Rachel Bratt: a matter of at your next meeting. By saying, this is a document that's being put out by the planning board and the house of partnership for the forum, you've been asked to co sponsor this.
Unknown: Can we give them this draft? Rachel Bratt: This draft is now public, so Jackie, you can take care of do Unknown: I have an electronic copy of this? How? Do I have electronic copy of this? I can take the document, get rid of the oh, if you order Rachel Bratt: anything, so you make a PDF and send Unknown: it around. Rachel Bratt: I didn't send this out. You might have noticed, six o'clock tonight. What you said, I have the green light.
Jim Grumbach: I did notice you sending it, Rachel Bratt: so I did, and I was trying to get dinner, and I didn't convert it into a PDF. But if you do that and send that around, and then Jackie at your next meeting, if you would propose that, that Unknown: would be great. So it's no work in there, but it's literally the DPW. I think we haven't Rachel Bratt: gotten to them yet,
Jim Grumbach: unless I missed it.
Do you mind Rachel Bratt: if you know Tom, that would be great. Larry and I'll do the assessing, I guess. Unknown: Okay, and that leaves, I got caught on human rights. Dei, that's Jeanette, I'm assuming. Rachel Bratt: So, so we asked her notes that actually I Mary Antes: think Karen Rosen thought, well Rachel Bratt: is on the committee. She can ask the committee Mary Antes: now she has sort of pulled back from the 2/50 so Karen has no man that and the lad, no man, that name yesterday or something, said she was in Argentina, so you may not get her full. Why don't? Rachel Bratt: Who's the chair of the DEI? Mary Antes: Karen,
Rachel Bratt: okay, thank you. So let me go through the list.
Select Board is Mary, building and health are Kathy. Rachel is assessor. Jim is conservation. Jack is Housing Trust. Rachel is housing authority. Mary is DTP, W and Rachel is human rights.
Jim Grumbach: Great. Thank you. Rachel Bratt: So again. Oh, and then we should not only solicit their support, but some of these people also have to be specifically asked if they'll participate. Unknown: So let's go through okay, now I think we should do that after you and I go through the stuff, so we now know what we've go ahead so we have one more conversation. Okay? In theory, though, we might want to have that discussion before we contact those people. No, I think we should. Rachel Bratt: Let's just get their support. I think get their support and also mention, actually Mary. I think the first order of reasons is to find out the 12th and then let us know is the 12th arrival date. And if not, then you have to check with the planning board about the fifth, and if not, you have to look at January. I assume everybody believes that once Thanksgiving, I agree. It's not a point running a forum in December, Unknown: because we don't actually have a lot of buy in already, because we have, by the Board of Health, they were pretty open that night. Rachel Bratt: Yeah, I think this is that performance, Unknown: and Julia also, and whether she's the one who participates on the panel or somebody Rachel Bratt: else, there's a lot of support for this, yeah, and I haven't seen anything further from Robert's website. Whether you know that the Robert and it's, I think it's on the building department website, right? But that's going to be something we want to make sure in. Is clear, and we work with them to make sure that people can pull up the checklist of what do I need to do Unknown: to they had started, and I don't know that we would think it was complete. Rachel Bratt: So I was very clear that we want to be involved in that website, making sure that it is an easy flow of information. They've got to ask you want to put up an ADU? What I have to do? Internal, external reconfiguration.
So that is our that's our update. Is there anything else? Unknown: Kathy, well, I would say on penalty. I think that is where this group can participate in terms of thinking about ideas, strategies, you know, being on the panel, and Rachel Bratt: so let's put that on the agenda for next time when we hope that we have new members where we can put it maybe that, maybe we even own that. Unknown: I think it is our panel, and I agree. We even said it. We said it to them so they start members of whp, yeah, we call the time. We have time to throw our ideas and to sort of dig into them. I think, identify resources. And I think a lot of this is going to be resources and links and websites and that type of information. Well, you now have the building department and the assessor. You think they won't be part of that, not Well, that would be a part of other ones. I suspect they won't be on penalty because they were not interested for you. DEP, absolutely,
Jim Grumbach: my apologies Unknown: are not working, okay,
Rachel Bratt: I mean, and basically, yeah, that's all you need on the panel. And maybe Robert as well. You know, part maybe Robert is participating in a lot of these panels, since he's hotel, Mary Antes: so we're not having like Doug or when, right? That's probably we should be sure to invite them correct to come, because they will Rachel Bratt: have, they can come, they can participate. They can from the floor. They can offer. If somebody says, Does anybody have ideas about costs? The issue was we, there was no sense that we wanted this to be an opportunity for people to promote their own but if somebody, a participant, wants to say, Well, I've done, you know, three ADU of under 900 square feet and like it cost one family physicals another, Unknown: and the planning board meeting that we did attend, I mean, Sackler was driving back from Maine or someplace, and he indicated that he was willing to share information that he had, I'm sorry, the architect, in terms of costs, all we wanted he could do that from the floor, Rachel Bratt: so he's not being validated us or given A Unknown: special podium, like putting the panel, the planning board, in a position that they Yeah, Mary Antes: but, but I think we should Yes, specifically, anybody know, Oh, absolutely, Rachel Bratt: that he's welcome to participate, yeah, but not, but not that he's not being officially sanctioned. Like, like the town to present this information, yeah, because, I mean, I think those were all important points. And I mean, Robert keeps reminding us, appropriately, that every case is different. There's no cookie cutter for this at all, even, you know, one yard versus another yard, and ADU and one yard will require this amount of work. And ad, you know, reconfiguring interior spaces, it's all Unknown: but I think one, one thing we bring to the table is we are sort of free flowing and creative. We we don't have a lot of rules. We're, we're not a formal committee. The Planning Board had is a formal town committee. They have a, you know, they have to bylaws. They've got to fit it into boxes. We don't have to fit into boxes. And I think that's an important part of this that we should take advantage of. Mary Antes: Now, you had a neighbor who was trying to build them. Unknown: Well, they they built it and it was not sanctioned because of all the all issues with the building department.
Rachel Bratt: So yeah, Unknown: and I'm sure, I'm sure there are a lot of people like that. They, you know, they've tried, and it's very frustrating when, when you know you can't fit into the exact things. And, you know, I so I can, I can talk about the fact that there are people in town who have essentially done this, but not with blessing of the town, because it's been so difficult to dig into the bylaws and regulations. But here, with this new statute and the revised by law, what we're trying to do is make it less difficult and more cost efficient and easier, so that people don't want to run away from it, but they want to embrace it, because then it will be formalized, and then it may enhance your property value more, rather than leaving you in this gray zone. It would be wonderful Rachel Bratt: if we can get a little bit of movement. I mean, we don't know how much, Unknown: but there is resources out there. This is from 2018 and this is from basically California, which is where Gene was actually talking about before twice. This guy's name is Cole Peterson, and he's got all sorts of material on the internet. And it's just used from Amazon. It's already mocked up. Anybody's Welcome Rachel Bratt: to when it's that easy to use. It's totally on. Unknown: It's called back to a revolution, the definitive guide to ADU development, and it's basically there was a section on affordable ADU and promoting affordable ADU. What's back to a revolution. Rachel Bratt: You got it used on Amazon? Yep.
Unknown: Guys called Kol Peterson,
Rachel Bratt: sounds like a good read. Yeah, Sen or
Unknown: thank you for finding that. And when did you say that was 2000 18,018?
And so it's giving a lot of examples from what they're doing in different places, basically from the West Coast, Oregon, Portland and also Austin, Texas. And can they go? Okay, more progressive cities, okay, but it is interesting, and it's again, promoting strategies for change, for things that actually could work and how to do it, and talking about an advocacy role, and talking about holding phones, very exciting support and stuff like that. It's pretty much what we've Rachel Bratt: been doing. The one thing that we're not dealing with, which is not fun. I wish they were a way to have some kind of low interest fund so that somebody could, let's say, borrow $5,000 or $10,000 to try to, you know, jump start their project with, you know, a below market, you know, 2% interest rate, 3% interest rate, so that I don't know if you know, I don't know if the trust would do anything like that. It gets complicated. Mary Antes: I mean, we do repair and something else, right? We've never talked about them. They do have home improvement. But it's really, Rachel Bratt: I mean, when you're
Unknown: trying to do, I mean,
Rachel Bratt: again, if you're trying to get a union built, and somebody says, Well, this is going to cost me 10s of $1,000 but if I got a really low interest loan for a third of it, let's say that might be the sweetener interest rates with that quarter Today, that is going to make a big difference. Unknown: But, yeah, I was actually looking this small this morning in terms of the capital cost being the major hurdle was ultimately out there talked about and the incentives to building, trying to overcome how to reduce capital cost development, how to market ADU is locally through earned media, in creating a sense of urgency by placing deadlines on incentives. The key is, what are the incentives and then building trust in the ADU permitting process? And I think that is something if there was when we talked about description of the group. That's what we were trying to get at when they I think they get a little caught up in it. But it was the idea that this permitting process, it would be clear, they're clear guidelines that they would be we talked about pre approved. They didn't like that term to be able to like they would take it too literally. But the idea. Was that there is a process, and that process applies to everybody. You can oh no, and there's a checklist that you know is gonna apply to you. It's gonna apply to me, and it's not gonna worry about whether, yes, every unit may be different, but you know what, I can still come with that you and I are basically gonna have the same criteria, and that's what people need to know, so they're not gonna feel like they're gonna get screwed. Rachel Bratt: I mean, I think the conversation of incentives, financial incentives, that is another conversation whether, and I don't know where we would have, it would be with the housing trust or the CPA, but I mean, those are our sources of kind of just earmarked for housing, kind of discussions and CPA Community Preservation Act, you know that, Unknown: right? Okay, this money from all the real estate transfers? Rachel Bratt: No, it's actually a surcharge from our property, right? Okay, so if you look at your property tax bill, which I know Unknown: we all love to look at, Rachel Bratt: there's a line item that says CPA on it so this, and that is, I think, one and a half percent of the tax obligation every town could choose either not to participate or to go up to 3% and we chose one and a half percent. And the idea was, early on, the state was going to matching funds. So if Wayland raised, let's say, a million dollars in CPA funds, that we were supposed to get a million from the state, that ratio has changed. And I don't know what I don't know what the matching is. Now, it might be very little at this point, I think, anyway that gets into the means of the statute. But the point was, the incentive for the cities and towns to levy this extra tax was that there would be some state money and and it had to go to one of three activities, at least 10% each year had to be allocated for housing, historic preservation or open space. So those were the three activities. And each year you have to set aside at least 10% each of them, but you can go out, and that's where the trust gets its manual contribution. Mary Antes: Every every year, we get that 10% Rachel Bratt: and you can get more for housing if you apply for right? So it's not it's not a maximum, it's a minimum, but it's an assurance that each of those activities get at least 10% Unknown: and is that, are those the only three types of activities? I mean, Mary Antes: open creation is, Rachel Bratt: yeah, open space slash recreation is what kind of it ended up being. And there were, there were debates about, can you use that money to redo the track field at the school trip. Yeah, so is that open space? Is that? You know, where does that fit in? But it was, it was open space. It was not in the statute of recreation. Okay? At recreation, somehow, I
Mary Antes: mentioned that there is a group. Metropolitan Area Planning Committee has started gathering representatives of housing trusts. They've had two meetings so far. The third one is tomorrow. At the second meeting, they talked about the real estate transfer, and Carmen and Gentile is has a bill, and of course, they're looking for people to support it. This would be a Rachel Bratt: transfer tax. Might be Mary Antes: similar. It would be similar to CPA, and would be a percentage. And there's all sorts of flexibility in the amount and what it goes for all afford for affordable housing, but Rachel Bratt: was there was this for all property transfers, or just certain properties like over? Mary Antes: Well, I think it's the it's very flexible. They're giving us an update tomorrow on where that is. We really can't say when you support it, because, you know, we're a town valley, but I would like at some point for some discussion of the trans of that, and see if, if there's interests. Rachel Bratt: Yes, well, I mean, the transfer tax has been used in a number of municipalities, including, I believe the cape, I believe Nantucket, maybe northeast Indian also, I don't remember, but I believe they've got the transfer tax. And I know transfer taxes exist elsewhere. I just, I don't know where Mary Antes: and how much and the bill is to make it available to anybody like the CPA right now, if I want to do it, you have to
pass it at town meeting and then give it to the your representative and hope that it'll go through and it doesn't always. So this is, as I understand it is, to make it an easier process. Unknown: So would be done on town wide basis. Wouldn't be a state mandate. Rachel Bratt: It sounds like a stay in a statute, and I mean, unlike it's not clear what the incentive would be from the state with CPA, there was a cash incentive that made sweetened the deal for towns to adopt this, I Unknown: don't know, and especially now With the uncertainty of health care and everyone else, education. I don't know what people are going to be Mary Antes: willing to when I mentioned it to Brian, he said, Oh, no, not another task. And of course, he's very much in favor of affordable housing. So, you know, it may not go anywhere. But I think it's worth a discussion. They talked about, you know, like we could get a million dollars.
Rachel Bratt: Well, sure. I mean, depending what you know, let's say all homes over a million dollars, most find many homes that are under all homes under million dollars, pay 1% whatever. Anyway, you know, then you come back to the question of, okay, we've got this money. Where do we build it? I mean, that becomes our age old. Problem is, even if we have the money, you have to find land, you have to have, Mary Antes: but I wonder if it could be used for ADU. I think, I think we know
Rachel Bratt: things are going to get a lot to get a lot worse before they get better. So whatever we can do to soften the blows of whatever's coming, yes, what we're trying to do.
Unknown: And then one of the other things remember that the planning would be, that was Anette brought it up, the idea of the condo conversion, using that as a mechanism. Rachel Bratt: If you've got a primary unit out of ADU, they would each become their own freestanding condo, right? Unknown: So you wouldn't be as it would be an incentive to de restriction. It wouldn't be the disincentive for de restriction, as opposed to like there currently is, in terms of people fearful of acting on their property. Rachel Bratt: Somehow, I feel like that's such a long shot. I mean, as Unknown: I don't know any general opinions that is exerted to encourage town, there's a case already.
Rachel Bratt: Georgetown, Massachusetts as a homeowner, wanting to go from having full independence on your property to constraining it by being in a quote Congo association with another family, I don't know. It doesn't strike me as, oh, that's a great idea. Let's everybody jump on Mary Antes: I don't Unknown: know if you, especially if you're thinking in terms of a way for an income property, in a way to Anette was telling but she didn't see the point if the property was used to have a sort of number of square feet, and that you thought it would be a reason for subdivided property, as opposed to Congo conversion. But for people who aren't going to subdivide, but who basically would be, there's a lot of people who are oversized or large homes, and you can imagine them, well, it's worth the conversation, is what it is. And get or give people options. In other words, there's nobody to be in business. They write what they want if it's allowed. And that's the question is, is it allowed? Is it authorized? This case, I think suggests that the state is open to it. But in any event, I've been looking at the attorney general opinion, that's how they're coming down. Is this is. Relative to dealing with the ADU Rachel Bratt: housing person Unknown: dealing with the ADU and interpretations, so I've been just looking at them to see what they're doing. Rachel Bratt: So I think that probably concludes the conversation about planning for Mary Antes: the ADU. The only other thing on the agenda is the annual report. Thank you for taking
Jim Grumbach: care of the
annual report. No, it looks Rachel Bratt: good to me. Unknown: I were you looking for changes? I thought it was.
Rachel Bratt: I've been
Jim Grumbach: writing on the back of it for Unknown: my minutes here, there's only one, and I'm not, at one point, it refers to promoting the use of the law. And I think, I don't think it's promoting the use of the law. I think it's promoting the development of ADU through the law, the new law, that's all. Comment, please.
Rachel Bratt: Okay, it's it's sort of the bottom. It's the first full paragraph on the summary. Town Meeting approved the proposed bylaw by a largeman majority. The whp is planning a town forum to promote the use of the new bylaw. And how quick Would you like that to Unknown: say, Well, I would say to promote development of ADUs through the new by law,
Rachel Bratt: to promote development Unknown: ad use.
Rachel Bratt: That's very nice.
Well, I I move that we accept a sound report with the revision. Jim Grumbach: Mention second.
Mary Antes: Jackie, yes. Kathy,
Unknown: yes. Maybe tonight, this may have already been picked up. This is just, this is not a substantive shame. It's on the last paragraph on the second page, Committee continues,
including the two local developers. I think it's interested in building. Jim Grumbach: I'm sorry this
Unknown: is Oh, yeah, interesting.
It requires a new boat. Beautiful. It was really nicely done. Excellent job.
Mary Antes: Sent you an email about do HLC having ADU presentations on the 30th of September and second of November, in case anybody,
Unknown: and by the way, Anette Lewis forwarded something to us.
Cost 75
Rachel Bratt: so Mary, remind me you sent me. You sent emails about the OHC on 18 Mary Antes: years, yeah, ADU to ADU presentations, Rachel Bratt: and that's an email from me. Mary Antes: Well, I forwarded it. Okay, I think Unknown: I like to make one revision. We've now approved the Annual Report with two edits instead of one, same motion, same five, zero vote. Rachel Bratt: Everybody's comfortable. Thank you. Okay, got it. Mary Antes: Thank you. The next
Rachel Bratt: meeting, let me just say one other thing I know. In the meeting before last, we talked about Catherine, and I doing kind of some overviews of housing issues, and I think we're prepared to do it. But given the ad, you know, and get a bunch of topics that people want. More background, and since we have some new memories, but I think we should just put that all through that Catherine and I were in touch and came up with the mini agenda, but that got shelved with the ADU stuff, and I wasn't at the last meeting. So I just want to say I haven't forgotten about it. I love talking about this stuff, so I'll be happy to go through some of the housing issues history programs, but right now, I think we've got to focus on the ATD forum getting all that done, but it's in the back Jim Grumbach: room. I guess that's good point. Rachel Bratt: So we don't have
Unknown: to vote on the consensus is to Rachel Bratt: postpone. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just offering to postponement Jim Grumbach: until after the ADU Mary Antes: form. Yeah.
Unknown: I Okay, so the next meeting we're talking about mid October, and are we going to stay on Wednesday Rachel Bratt: nights? Wednesday, Mary Antes: my niece is coming on the 15th, which I think is a Wednesday 22nd and my daughter is coming on the 23rd which I think is Thursday, Thursday. So 22nd to 22nd 22nd Unknown: is good. I actually had a trial which is scheduled to end on the 22nd so the 15th, so let's say October, 22 at seven o'clock Mary Antes: in person again. Or Unknown: how do you guys feel about getting out tonight? It actually was fine. Rachel Bratt: I was tired when I left my house. I feel Jim Grumbach: this time it's nice to see guys face. What do
Rachel Bratt: you feel Jack? I'm up for it
Mary Antes: in person or Zoom Unknown: probably easier? Rachel Bratt: Well, no, it's easy
Unknown: to be in person because I don't have a problem with being a guardian for whatever reason, nobody can hear me. Yeah, you know the problem with Zoom is there are times that somebody's computer perhaps out, or they don't get invited. We've had enough time so Rachel Bratt: you want in person? Yeah, we'll do it Mary Antes: in person. Maybe in the winter. We'll go back to zoom or something if we have a winter. So now I
Unknown: so in favor.
and soon after the meeting. This is practical. So participating Jackie Espiritusanto-Vega I messed it up every time. I can spell it. You can just do data if that's what I would work Jim Grumbach and the meeting Unknown: There does not appear to be any public comment. Thank you for taking the minutes. Jim Grumbach: You're welcome. You know, look, I haven't done it for a while. so I think you guys have been very Rachel Bratt: quickly so you can do it next time. Jim Grumbach: I'm not going Mary Antes: review the minutes of the last meeting. August 13. Jim has sent his corrections, any others or can go through and tell you what Jim did, if you don't have it, whatever. Unknown: They was nothing. was. It was all minor. Mary Antes: So, yeah, an apostrophe there. Rachel Bratt: I just, since I wasn't at the last meeting, I did not notice Cascade was doing 16 ownership
Mary Antes: House meeting that Robert home, Unknown: also, they're back to ownership from and they've increased the number of bedrooms from the original class. Okay, they were originally at 89 or something, and now they're somewhere over 90. That was part of when they went back, when they appealed our ruling, our the zoning board's ruling, which, which granted the special permit, but with conditions, they appealed it to. It was then eocd, and as a settlement, they agreed to put in a their own wastewater plant, and they also went from own units to rental units. So apparently, Rachel Bratt: they've gone back to which means I assume that it's 40 B only 25% discount for your subs has an industry inventory, and that the rest will be market rate, presumably compass. Unknown: Okay, and this is the old, actually, this is Mary Antes: the former Mahoney's. Thank you. Jackie, Jackie, I Rachel Bratt: said, Jackie, motion Unknown: then to I Mary Antes: move to approve amendment and I second it all right, all in favor of Jackie, yes. Kathy, yes. Rachel, yes. Okay. Updates, I know I had an email from Catherine today saying she missed the last meeting and that Jean would be able to tell us more 212
If she's here, Rachel Bratt: I have no right. You can have Katherine's online.
I think Jean had said she couldn't come. Jean over a light tickets are right, and I you haven't heard Mary Antes: I heard from Katherine today. She did not say she would not be here. we talked about some other things, including saying that Jean would probably have more information on she would. But I meant. Mentioned that at the Housing Trust meeting last night, Mike Staiti, who has been on the 212 Committee, said that he really doesn't have expertise in group homes and the people who take care of them, or anything like that. His expertise is in construction and permitting and all of that. So he resigned. The Trust has nominated Brian Boucher. Jim Grumbach: He resigned from Mary Antes: the 212 Jim Grumbach: oh, I see okay. Mary Antes: And we were recommending Brian be in his place. Janot Mendler de Suarez: And so Brian and Katherine will be on the 212 committee.
Mary Antes: And that asked about Mike would make himself available whenever they needed his kind of expertise, which is a good thing, because he's heard he's a contractor and was very knowledgeable of that stuff. But Shepherd, Rachel Bratt: well, Ah, man, I don't really know what to say. It seems like things are just dragging. As Mary knows, I've gotten some information back from the developer of the Good Shepherd Parish, and is the Planning Office of Urban Affairs. It's a nonprofit arm of the Archdiocese of lost a approval power, and they do all the development for archdiocese. They've been very, very into it. They've been very thorough. It seems like there is a hang up at our conservation commission, and I, honestly, I got as far today as trying to print out the stuff that he sent me, because he sent me five documents. He meeting the man at Hope. Philip is his name. He sent me these five documents, trying to get through them, looking at what the orders of conditions are that they're requesting from the state. The state and the Conservation Commission, apparently have not come to an understanding yet, and I just I can read to you what Philip wrote. I don't fully understand all of this stuff. Unknown: Well, maybe, maybe we could help you, but no guarantee. Rachel Bratt: Thank you for so I'm just gonna read my note to Philip yesterday, which is what I typically do when I'm supposed to give an update as I write to the person who's physically going to do that. And I said, that doesn't matter what I said. I said, what's happening? Hi Rachel, we met EO. EOHLC, that's the Executive Office of Housing and political communities and mass housing, to figure out where St Anne's slots into the future funding to EOL. EOLHC was hesitant as to a ballpark time frame as they wanted more clarity regarding the appeal of DEP is superseding order of conditions from the Conservation Commission. So again, this is the Department of Environmental Protection at the state, I guess, assessing the Conservation Commissions, superseding order of conditions. I hope these just enough. Jim Grumbach: My understanding is when the State wetlands, I think that's what it is, the state wetlands bylaws, as opposed to the town bylaws, when there are certain times when the state comes into play and it may override the town, and it sounds to me like they did, and then has the right, automatic right to appeal. Rachel Bratt: So helpful. Jim Grumbach: I think procedurally, that's that's kind of, yes, it's sort of a preemption argument where the state Rachel Bratt: until it's resolved, eohl isn't going to give us a date, but our target construction start is Q1, of Qt versus second quarter of 2026 otherwise we're doing what we can to be ready to move to construction once we have a better understanding of when we can close on construction loan. And then here's some background on the conservation issue. Maybe this is also illuminating. We spent over a year with ConCom, though most of the time was related to coordination with the peer reviewer, between between ConCom and both Board of Health. The order of conditions was issued in November included several unexpected and problematic conditions, which led us to file an appeal. We had made clear to conservation and Town Manager our intent to withdraw the appeal once an amendment order of conditions was drafted, but conservation never acted. The appeal concluded that DEP issued a more favorable superseding Order, order of conditions, after which conservation voted to appeal further. They've since indicated a willingness to discuss settlement, and we're hopeful this could be resolved in the coming weeks. And
Unknown: then so now it's between the DEP and ConCom not EOHLC. Rachel Bratt: I think that's right, okay. And then I think the other thing that I had gotten from him in some other email was we've been approved for the federal tax credits, which is the main subsudy that happened quite a few months ago, I don't think. But there's also an issue of getting state bonds from Mass Housing, because the bonds that we get from Mass Housing also help to reduce the cost of construction. And I think in another email that I had gotten from him, he said that EOL was reluctant to give us a timeline on that until everything else was so but you know, we're in the queue for everything. And you know, these guys are so capable and competent and patient, but it's just taking Jim Grumbach: well, isn't, isn't Jean over now on ConCom, Unknown: or no, she, we are hoping that she, that ConCom will appoint her to this committee Jim Grumbach: but she's not. Oh, I see So, so she's not a member of ConCom. Okay, it would be helpful to know somebody. I don't even know, who's that, who's the Chair of ConCom? used to be Sherre Greenbaum Mary Antes: It's Sean Fair, Rachel Bratt: fair, okay, I mean, Linda Hanson is obviously the one person who writes all of the superseding order of conditions. I mean, I've got all these documents here that she has signed, but it's
Unknown: I could try. Paul Sean, I mean, I sat with him on the zoning board for a year or two. I mean, that was decades. Rachel Bratt: Anyway, you know, whatever's going on seems to be at our end, local level, local problem the state. You know federal credits are lined up. The state knows we need to be in the queue for the mass housing, not the Unknown: state either. More favorable ruling is that you said Rachel Bratt: yes. That sounds Unknown: like another local issue with ConCom. Yeah. Rachel Bratt: And I did try to figure out what it was with the sticking points, but I didn't have time to go through this, and it's pretty dense. And, you know, we have two lawyers here. Unknown: This is, well, Tom, if you're, if you're giving up on it and you want to give it to me, I'll take it. Rachel Bratt: But otherwise, I think we don't have to honestly. I wanted to know I wanted to know more about it. I got as far as trying to print this stuff. I think what Philip has written to us probably suffices for our Unknown: minutes. Well, be nice to know from ConCom, what's the Rachel Bratt: sticking point? If you're okay, that would be great if we can get more information or lean on him a little bit. But
it just would be nice to get this resolved and to break ground by the first or second quarter of 2026 somebody from the church said this was was asking me about it from good shepherd. And she said, Well, she wasn't sure the current priest is quite as supportive as our friend David holiday. And I said it really was out of the church's hands at this point that the archia, since had approved it, the developers would name. I sound true to go along with it, but it is not in his camp at this point, either for or against. He's just kind of inherited. So I don't know anything about that. It's just hearsay a member of the church.
Mary Antes: It's whatever you find out from Tom Tom, if there's something we should do, Unknown: like write a letter, Jim Grumbach: yeah, I will notify you, Rachel Bratt: and then we'll let you decide
Unknown: we must know a different Jim Brownback, I'm looking to delegate Rachel Bratt: tonight. The big item is ADU.
Unknown: Forum.
Rachel Bratt: Kathy, why don't you start?
Unknown: So I think Rachel sent out a second on the final,
Rachel Bratt: third draft proposed. Unknown: This is where we basically went to Planning Board to get their tie in and collaborate Rachel Bratt: a couple of copies, if anybody
Mary Antes: needs it. Part of the comments Unknown: on that. This is the, this is the, this is the blown up version, yeah, unless you Well, this is clean. Rachel Bratt: Oh, I think you Unknown: somehow differently. So,
yeah, the final one in March is date 16 that's covered. Rachel, can I have a problem? Please?
Yes. Anyway, as a result of that, in that prior meeting, we talked about meeting with Anette, informally. And then we went back to Anette with, you know, responding to her concerns, and Robin and we went to the planning board meeting, and, oh, you were both there, I think Jim and Mary. Jim Grumbach: And who's Robin for yourself? Sorry, I think she's Unknown: a chair now Jim Grumbach: she Oh, Rachel Bratt: she's the chair, I think. And I think that I could be wrong
attorney, and she is now the representative. Unknown: She's definitely been delegated on this issue. Rachel Bratt: She had also sponsored. Haven't she been the one to speak a town meeting on the ADU bylaw? Unknown: Do we recall that? No, that is correct. She presented it so she Rachel Bratt: then, kind of now has inherited on the planning board being their spokesperson. Unknown: Okay. Thank so anyway, I mean, I'm not sure that there's so many generations we went back and forth with, we made a very concerted effort to address their concerns. And we, you know, a lot of it, I think, was wordsmithing. I think a lot of it was says to me, it was taking things too literally and getting feeling like we're putting them in a box where I don't think we were, but, you know, again, Rachel been bad with and we made lots of concessions, and it was fine. I mean, it was an agreeable kind of process. I think whenever you're Rachel Bratt: dealing with multiple committees trying to write a document, it's gets difficult, and what came out of it, I think, is fine and clear and satisfactory to go forward now. Unknown: And we gave them things, as far as you know, we gave them the order, we changed the order we had originally. I think what we used previously was, you know, I think seen a document where we, think we shared this before, where we essentially were talking about, you know, the introduction, the overview of the legal product regulations, and then we were going to talk about construction and identifying personnel and that, I think, did react, there was some reaction to that. They didn't want anybody identified who would, in fact, be somebody working for Wayland, or from Wayland who would be a contractor. And I don't know that that's cast in stone, but this is the days of the issue. We had raised DEP sacred name, and a name. And I think Jimmy would mention before when melody, and we didn't even put wind forward as a name at this point, and and basically they didn't want names identified, which was okay, so. So we essentially Rachel Bratt: potential contractors and private business people. And there's Unknown: no reason these people can't participate in the forum, but they won't be identified, as I understand it, as people on the panel, person Rachel Bratt: right, and they can, essentially, they pitch for their product, or they pitch for their right. So that Unknown: we understood that. We haven't Rachel Bratt: sanitized that, yeah. Unknown: And then the now, the septic issues were obviously a concern to the planning board and Title Five, no, we realize it's going to be addressed, that it's an issue. And then we basically took what I think we talked about at our last meeting, which was the brainstorming idea of how to promote affordable ADUs, and we put it as the last panel in part. I mean, I think our pitch to what was talking to with Rachel was the idea that we would gain on a advocacy note, a positive note, a strategy for action. And people leave because we can't get everything done and now, so what the people who will stay will be the people who perhaps are committed to this, or have an interest in this and whatever. But instead of talking about seeing who's gonna end
Rachel Bratt: up front, and that will take most of the hour and a half, presumably, and then the next steps of a ad use when we get to it, or we'll defer to another meeting. So, so what would the next step of where we are is Kathy and I would start, should start contacting the various other people who are supposed to be part of this little planning group. So right now, the planning group for the forum it consists of Kathy Lee and Robin, but we want to start recruiting now. Building Board of Health assess, the conservation Housing Trust, Housing Authority, DEP, new human rights. We'll be looking for as many of these folks as possible to co sponsor this kind of Tom, when it gets advertised, they would all be listed along with the planning board in the house of partnership as co sponsors of the forum. So I think the next step is for us to call email each of those people on that list, and you know, we're now in a position where we can send this to them and describe what we're doing. The date is tentatively set to November 12. Does that work for us?
Mary Antes: Somehow, the 12th is in the back of my mind as a 2/50 event,
Rachel Bratt: then it turns out, for me, the fifth would be better. The fifth would be better for various reasons that the planning board had come up with the 12th because that was a regularly scheduled meeting of theirs. But as for me, I would love to make it the fifth. The things we need to do are, obviously get the co sponsors and line up people for the panels. Unknown: And I think when we're talking about co sponsors, we're not talking about this. This is a done deal at this point. We're not going back right to do what we did with Rachel Bratt: this was the planning board and Robert humble, who waited today, basically, I couldn't move this document into the planning board, and Robert had given me okay. It's been done for I don't know my first draft was two weeks ago, probably yes, but Robert was on vacation, and it just took time, and you just have to kind of wait it Unknown: out. So are the co sponsors of people that are Rachel Bratt: mentioned, yes, bullet, those are the people that we will be recruiting to be co Unknown: sponsors. So that's the boh, the building department, the assessor, Housing Authority, obviously, Katherine, I don't think there's much question with the Housing Authority and the Housing Trust. St Mary works pretty regularly with Mike, that's not a problem. Rachel Bratt: I don't know whether we didn't put the select Word down on this. Should they be just actually sponsored? Unknown: I think they should and and you know what I can do. I can I can contact when I contact Sean Fay, I can, I can ask him to be a co sponsor. They mentioned Rachel Bratt: Tom Okay. Who did we have down? Unknown: We have Linda Hanson, okay, and I don't know her. I, I can always ask him. That contact. Rachel Bratt: I guess I didn't put, I didn't even think to put a select board down, but maybe we should make an overture and see if they're interested. Jim Grumbach: I think, I think we should. Rachel Bratt: So I think the next you're going to contact Sean Fay Unknown: and ConCom on the palette issue. But I can Rachel Bratt: also solicit Jim Grumbach: his interest if he Rachel Bratt: says, Dr Linda, of course we also need a representative on ConCom for one of the panels. Is that not listed? Maybe it's not listed. Just be. So it's just, it's just asking for his endorsement, you know, the endorsement of conservation. Because, yes, there, there are wetlands issues, there are possible issues involved with ConCom. So they're not going to be a panelist, I guess, but it's like appropriate to have them on board. Mary Antes: Maybe
Rachel Bratt: some other things expect attorney brought Unknown: back to Well, I think the other thing we could do, if we wanted, is we could say we've planned out the meeting and we have some panels. Would anybody from these boards be interested? Rachel Bratt: Well, I think you have to do much, yes, too much, because the panels can't be that big. Jim Grumbach: Okay, so I'm not gonna, you're not Rachel Bratt: asking them. You're just, I'm not Jim Grumbach: gonna ask them. I'll just add some notes. You know, if you Mary Antes: have two or three that you could ask about opponent, Jean, Rachel Bratt: oh, there you go. Another another task. You appointing gene to as a representative. So you've got three things. It sounds like, okay, so I have to.
Unknown: So one is power. Two is sponsor, Rachel Bratt: sponsored, co sponsor, along with many other town boards, co sponsor Unknown: the forum. And the third is appoint gene Rachel Bratt: as as a ConCom.
Mary Antes: I have talked with Linda about this. I've sent her several reminders so it's not new to her. I don't know Jim Grumbach: this is a representative to this committee. Yes,
Mary Antes: we haven't had a representative from the conservation for two years, three years.
Jim Grumbach: Okay, Rachel Bratt: okay, so thank you for being patient. Thank you. Thank you for doing so. We do need to contact now, Mary, you're gonna, did you say would contact the Select Board Mary Antes: again and Rachel Bratt: let them know about this? Why don't you just say, I haven't checked the date of November 5 with the planning board, their tentative date was the 12th. Yeah, that's what I have in mind. But maybe if you can open up the fifth or the 12th and see what what their availability is, and you're going to double check if there's something on the 2/50 that would be a deal. Perfect. The 19th gets too close to Thanksgiving, and then after Thanksgiving, it's not a good time with Christmas. The holidays. Nobody wants to plan December. So if we didn't make it in November, we'd having to push it into January, which would be what we would do. Would be what it's what we would do. It's what we'd have to be the 12th of January. You know, early in January. But okay, so can we actually go through this Cathy just quickly? Who's going to call whom we've got the ConCom set? So Jim is going to do that. Select the word is married
Unknown: sport of health, building, building, what do you Rachel Bratt: want to do? Who do you want to call that? I think I had Unknown: Juliet and Rachel Bratt: Nathan, so Board of Health and Nathan and Kathy and the assessor is doing that. Am I doing that? Okay, so we have that assessor and DPW all do actually Jackie's on the Housing Trust. I'll. Local Chair of the House interest you
Unknown: think Mike's gonna wanna? You think Mike's gonna want to do that?
I mean, they don't have to do anything. It's certainly Rachel Bratt: a matter of at your next meeting. By saying, this is a document that's being put out by the planning board and the house of partnership for the forum, you've been asked to co sponsor this.
Unknown: Can we give them this draft? Rachel Bratt: This draft is now public, so Jackie, you can take care of do Unknown: I have an electronic copy of this? How? Do I have electronic copy of this? I can take the document, get rid of the oh, if you order Rachel Bratt: anything, so you make a PDF and send Unknown: it around. Rachel Bratt: I didn't send this out. You might have noticed, six o'clock tonight. What you said, I have the green light.
Jim Grumbach: I did notice you sending it, Rachel Bratt: so I did, and I was trying to get dinner, and I didn't convert it into a PDF. But if you do that and send that around, and then Jackie at your next meeting, if you would propose that, that Unknown: would be great. So it's no work in there, but it's literally the DPW. I think we haven't Rachel Bratt: gotten to them yet,
Jim Grumbach: unless I missed it.
Do you mind Rachel Bratt: if you know Tom, that would be great. Larry and I'll do the assessing, I guess. Unknown: Okay, and that leaves, I got caught on human rights. Dei, that's Jeanette, I'm assuming. Rachel Bratt: So, so we asked her notes that actually I Mary Antes: think Karen Rosen thought, well Rachel Bratt: is on the committee. She can ask the committee Mary Antes: now she has sort of pulled back from the 2/50 so Karen has no man that and the lad, no man, that name yesterday or something, said she was in Argentina, so you may not get her full. Why don't? Rachel Bratt: Who's the chair of the DEI? Mary Antes: Karen,
Rachel Bratt: okay, thank you. So let me go through the list.
Select Board is Mary, building and health are Kathy. Rachel is assessor. Jim is conservation. Jack is Housing Trust. Rachel is housing authority. Mary is DTP, W and Rachel is human rights.
Jim Grumbach: Great. Thank you. Rachel Bratt: So again. Oh, and then we should not only solicit their support, but some of these people also have to be specifically asked if they'll participate. Unknown: So let's go through okay, now I think we should do that after you and I go through the stuff, so we now know what we've go ahead so we have one more conversation. Okay? In theory, though, we might want to have that discussion before we contact those people. No, I think we should. Rachel Bratt: Let's just get their support. I think get their support and also mention, actually Mary. I think the first order of reasons is to find out the 12th and then let us know is the 12th arrival date. And if not, then you have to check with the planning board about the fifth, and if not, you have to look at January. I assume everybody believes that once Thanksgiving, I agree. It's not a point running a forum in December, Unknown: because we don't actually have a lot of buy in already, because we have, by the Board of Health, they were pretty open that night. Rachel Bratt: Yeah, I think this is that performance, Unknown: and Julia also, and whether she's the one who participates on the panel or somebody Rachel Bratt: else, there's a lot of support for this, yeah, and I haven't seen anything further from Robert's website. Whether you know that the Robert and it's, I think it's on the building department website, right? But that's going to be something we want to make sure in. Is clear, and we work with them to make sure that people can pull up the checklist of what do I need to do Unknown: to they had started, and I don't know that we would think it was complete. Rachel Bratt: So I was very clear that we want to be involved in that website, making sure that it is an easy flow of information. They've got to ask you want to put up an ADU? What I have to do? Internal, external reconfiguration.
So that is our that's our update. Is there anything else? Unknown: Kathy, well, I would say on penalty. I think that is where this group can participate in terms of thinking about ideas, strategies, you know, being on the panel, and Rachel Bratt: so let's put that on the agenda for next time when we hope that we have new members where we can put it maybe that, maybe we even own that. Unknown: I think it is our panel, and I agree. We even said it. We said it to them so they start members of whp, yeah, we call the time. We have time to throw our ideas and to sort of dig into them. I think, identify resources. And I think a lot of this is going to be resources and links and websites and that type of information. Well, you now have the building department and the assessor. You think they won't be part of that, not Well, that would be a part of other ones. I suspect they won't be on penalty because they were not interested for you. DEP, absolutely,
Jim Grumbach: my apologies Unknown: are not working, okay,
Rachel Bratt: I mean, and basically, yeah, that's all you need on the panel. And maybe Robert as well. You know, part maybe Robert is participating in a lot of these panels, since he's hotel, Mary Antes: so we're not having like Doug or when, right? That's probably we should be sure to invite them correct to come, because they will Rachel Bratt: have, they can come, they can participate. They can from the floor. They can offer. If somebody says, Does anybody have ideas about costs? The issue was we, there was no sense that we wanted this to be an opportunity for people to promote their own but if somebody, a participant, wants to say, Well, I've done, you know, three ADU of under 900 square feet and like it cost one family physicals another, Unknown: and the planning board meeting that we did attend, I mean, Sackler was driving back from Maine or someplace, and he indicated that he was willing to share information that he had, I'm sorry, the architect, in terms of costs, all we wanted he could do that from the floor, Rachel Bratt: so he's not being validated us or given A Unknown: special podium, like putting the panel, the planning board, in a position that they Yeah, Mary Antes: but, but I think we should Yes, specifically, anybody know, Oh, absolutely, Rachel Bratt: that he's welcome to participate, yeah, but not, but not that he's not being officially sanctioned. Like, like the town to present this information, yeah, because, I mean, I think those were all important points. And I mean, Robert keeps reminding us, appropriately, that every case is different. There's no cookie cutter for this at all, even, you know, one yard versus another yard, and ADU and one yard will require this amount of work. And ad, you know, reconfiguring interior spaces, it's all Unknown: but I think one, one thing we bring to the table is we are sort of free flowing and creative. We we don't have a lot of rules. We're, we're not a formal committee. The Planning Board had is a formal town committee. They have a, you know, they have to bylaws. They've got to fit it into boxes. We don't have to fit into boxes. And I think that's an important part of this that we should take advantage of. Mary Antes: Now, you had a neighbor who was trying to build them. Unknown: Well, they they built it and it was not sanctioned because of all the all issues with the building department.
Rachel Bratt: So yeah, Unknown: and I'm sure, I'm sure there are a lot of people like that. They, you know, they've tried, and it's very frustrating when, when you know you can't fit into the exact things. And, you know, I so I can, I can talk about the fact that there are people in town who have essentially done this, but not with blessing of the town, because it's been so difficult to dig into the bylaws and regulations. But here, with this new statute and the revised by law, what we're trying to do is make it less difficult and more cost efficient and easier, so that people don't want to run away from it, but they want to embrace it, because then it will be formalized, and then it may enhance your property value more, rather than leaving you in this gray zone. It would be wonderful Rachel Bratt: if we can get a little bit of movement. I mean, we don't know how much, Unknown: but there is resources out there. This is from 2018 and this is from basically California, which is where Gene was actually talking about before twice. This guy's name is Cole Peterson, and he's got all sorts of material on the internet. And it's just used from Amazon. It's already mocked up. Anybody's Welcome Rachel Bratt: to when it's that easy to use. It's totally on. Unknown: It's called back to a revolution, the definitive guide to ADU development, and it's basically there was a section on affordable ADU and promoting affordable ADU. What's back to a revolution. Rachel Bratt: You got it used on Amazon? Yep.
Unknown: Guys called Kol Peterson,
Rachel Bratt: sounds like a good read. Yeah, Sen or
Unknown: thank you for finding that. And when did you say that was 2000 18,018?
And so it's giving a lot of examples from what they're doing in different places, basically from the West Coast, Oregon, Portland and also Austin, Texas. And can they go? Okay, more progressive cities, okay, but it is interesting, and it's again, promoting strategies for change, for things that actually could work and how to do it, and talking about an advocacy role, and talking about holding phones, very exciting support and stuff like that. It's pretty much what we've Rachel Bratt: been doing. The one thing that we're not dealing with, which is not fun. I wish they were a way to have some kind of low interest fund so that somebody could, let's say, borrow $5,000 or $10,000 to try to, you know, jump start their project with, you know, a below market, you know, 2% interest rate, 3% interest rate, so that I don't know if you know, I don't know if the trust would do anything like that. It gets complicated. Mary Antes: I mean, we do repair and something else, right? We've never talked about them. They do have home improvement. But it's really, Rachel Bratt: I mean, when you're
Unknown: trying to do, I mean,
Rachel Bratt: again, if you're trying to get a union built, and somebody says, Well, this is going to cost me 10s of $1,000 but if I got a really low interest loan for a third of it, let's say that might be the sweetener interest rates with that quarter Today, that is going to make a big difference. Unknown: But, yeah, I was actually looking this small this morning in terms of the capital cost being the major hurdle was ultimately out there talked about and the incentives to building, trying to overcome how to reduce capital cost development, how to market ADU is locally through earned media, in creating a sense of urgency by placing deadlines on incentives. The key is, what are the incentives and then building trust in the ADU permitting process? And I think that is something if there was when we talked about description of the group. That's what we were trying to get at when they I think they get a little caught up in it. But it was the idea that this permitting process, it would be clear, they're clear guidelines that they would be we talked about pre approved. They didn't like that term to be able to like they would take it too literally. But the idea. Was that there is a process, and that process applies to everybody. You can oh no, and there's a checklist that you know is gonna apply to you. It's gonna apply to me, and it's not gonna worry about whether, yes, every unit may be different, but you know what, I can still come with that you and I are basically gonna have the same criteria, and that's what people need to know, so they're not gonna feel like they're gonna get screwed. Rachel Bratt: I mean, I think the conversation of incentives, financial incentives, that is another conversation whether, and I don't know where we would have, it would be with the housing trust or the CPA, but I mean, those are our sources of kind of just earmarked for housing, kind of discussions and CPA Community Preservation Act, you know that, Unknown: right? Okay, this money from all the real estate transfers? Rachel Bratt: No, it's actually a surcharge from our property, right? Okay, so if you look at your property tax bill, which I know Unknown: we all love to look at, Rachel Bratt: there's a line item that says CPA on it so this, and that is, I think, one and a half percent of the tax obligation every town could choose either not to participate or to go up to 3% and we chose one and a half percent. And the idea was, early on, the state was going to matching funds. So if Wayland raised, let's say, a million dollars in CPA funds, that we were supposed to get a million from the state, that ratio has changed. And I don't know what I don't know what the matching is. Now, it might be very little at this point, I think, anyway that gets into the means of the statute. But the point was, the incentive for the cities and towns to levy this extra tax was that there would be some state money and and it had to go to one of three activities, at least 10% each year had to be allocated for housing, historic preservation or open space. So those were the three activities. And each year you have to set aside at least 10% each of them, but you can go out, and that's where the trust gets its manual contribution. Mary Antes: Every every year, we get that 10% Rachel Bratt: and you can get more for housing if you apply for right? So it's not it's not a maximum, it's a minimum, but it's an assurance that each of those activities get at least 10% Unknown: and is that, are those the only three types of activities? I mean, Mary Antes: open creation is, Rachel Bratt: yeah, open space slash recreation is what kind of it ended up being. And there were, there were debates about, can you use that money to redo the track field at the school trip. Yeah, so is that open space? Is that? You know, where does that fit in? But it was, it was open space. It was not in the statute of recreation. Okay? At recreation, somehow, I
Mary Antes: mentioned that there is a group. Metropolitan Area Planning Committee has started gathering representatives of housing trusts. They've had two meetings so far. The third one is tomorrow. At the second meeting, they talked about the real estate transfer, and Carmen and Gentile is has a bill, and of course, they're looking for people to support it. This would be a Rachel Bratt: transfer tax. Might be Mary Antes: similar. It would be similar to CPA, and would be a percentage. And there's all sorts of flexibility in the amount and what it goes for all afford for affordable housing, but Rachel Bratt: was there was this for all property transfers, or just certain properties like over? Mary Antes: Well, I think it's the it's very flexible. They're giving us an update tomorrow on where that is. We really can't say when you support it, because, you know, we're a town valley, but I would like at some point for some discussion of the trans of that, and see if, if there's interests. Rachel Bratt: Yes, well, I mean, the transfer tax has been used in a number of municipalities, including, I believe the cape, I believe Nantucket, maybe northeast Indian also, I don't remember, but I believe they've got the transfer tax. And I know transfer taxes exist elsewhere. I just, I don't know where Mary Antes: and how much and the bill is to make it available to anybody like the CPA right now, if I want to do it, you have to
pass it at town meeting and then give it to the your representative and hope that it'll go through and it doesn't always. So this is, as I understand it is, to make it an easier process. Unknown: So would be done on town wide basis. Wouldn't be a state mandate. Rachel Bratt: It sounds like a stay in a statute, and I mean, unlike it's not clear what the incentive would be from the state with CPA, there was a cash incentive that made sweetened the deal for towns to adopt this, I Unknown: don't know, and especially now With the uncertainty of health care and everyone else, education. I don't know what people are going to be Mary Antes: willing to when I mentioned it to Brian, he said, Oh, no, not another task. And of course, he's very much in favor of affordable housing. So, you know, it may not go anywhere. But I think it's worth a discussion. They talked about, you know, like we could get a million dollars.
Rachel Bratt: Well, sure. I mean, depending what you know, let's say all homes over a million dollars, most find many homes that are under all homes under million dollars, pay 1% whatever. Anyway, you know, then you come back to the question of, okay, we've got this money. Where do we build it? I mean, that becomes our age old. Problem is, even if we have the money, you have to find land, you have to have, Mary Antes: but I wonder if it could be used for ADU. I think, I think we know
Rachel Bratt: things are going to get a lot to get a lot worse before they get better. So whatever we can do to soften the blows of whatever's coming, yes, what we're trying to do.
Unknown: And then one of the other things remember that the planning would be, that was Anette brought it up, the idea of the condo conversion, using that as a mechanism. Rachel Bratt: If you've got a primary unit out of ADU, they would each become their own freestanding condo, right? Unknown: So you wouldn't be as it would be an incentive to de restriction. It wouldn't be the disincentive for de restriction, as opposed to like there currently is, in terms of people fearful of acting on their property. Rachel Bratt: Somehow, I feel like that's such a long shot. I mean, as Unknown: I don't know any general opinions that is exerted to encourage town, there's a case already.
Rachel Bratt: Georgetown, Massachusetts as a homeowner, wanting to go from having full independence on your property to constraining it by being in a quote Congo association with another family, I don't know. It doesn't strike me as, oh, that's a great idea. Let's everybody jump on Mary Antes: I don't Unknown: know if you, especially if you're thinking in terms of a way for an income property, in a way to Anette was telling but she didn't see the point if the property was used to have a sort of number of square feet, and that you thought it would be a reason for subdivided property, as opposed to Congo conversion. But for people who aren't going to subdivide, but who basically would be, there's a lot of people who are oversized or large homes, and you can imagine them, well, it's worth the conversation, is what it is. And get or give people options. In other words, there's nobody to be in business. They write what they want if it's allowed. And that's the question is, is it allowed? Is it authorized? This case, I think suggests that the state is open to it. But in any event, I've been looking at the attorney general opinion, that's how they're coming down. Is this is. Relative to dealing with the ADU Rachel Bratt: housing person Unknown: dealing with the ADU and interpretations, so I've been just looking at them to see what they're doing. Rachel Bratt: So I think that probably concludes the conversation about planning for Mary Antes: the ADU. The only other thing on the agenda is the annual report. Thank you for taking
Jim Grumbach: care of the
annual report. No, it looks Rachel Bratt: good to me. Unknown: I were you looking for changes? I thought it was.
Rachel Bratt: I've been
Jim Grumbach: writing on the back of it for Unknown: my minutes here, there's only one, and I'm not, at one point, it refers to promoting the use of the law. And I think, I don't think it's promoting the use of the law. I think it's promoting the development of ADU through the law, the new law, that's all. Comment, please.
Rachel Bratt: Okay, it's it's sort of the bottom. It's the first full paragraph on the summary. Town Meeting approved the proposed bylaw by a largeman majority. The whp is planning a town forum to promote the use of the new bylaw. And how quick Would you like that to Unknown: say, Well, I would say to promote development of ADUs through the new by law,
Rachel Bratt: to promote development Unknown: ad use.
Rachel Bratt: That's very nice.
Well, I I move that we accept a sound report with the revision. Jim Grumbach: Mention second.
Mary Antes: Jackie, yes. Kathy,
Unknown: yes. Maybe tonight, this may have already been picked up. This is just, this is not a substantive shame. It's on the last paragraph on the second page, Committee continues,
including the two local developers. I think it's interested in building. Jim Grumbach: I'm sorry this
Unknown: is Oh, yeah, interesting.
It requires a new boat. Beautiful. It was really nicely done. Excellent job.
Mary Antes: Sent you an email about do HLC having ADU presentations on the 30th of September and second of November, in case anybody,
Unknown: and by the way, Anette Lewis forwarded something to us.
Cost 75
Rachel Bratt: so Mary, remind me you sent me. You sent emails about the OHC on 18 Mary Antes: years, yeah, ADU to ADU presentations, Rachel Bratt: and that's an email from me. Mary Antes: Well, I forwarded it. Okay, I think Unknown: I like to make one revision. We've now approved the Annual Report with two edits instead of one, same motion, same five, zero vote. Rachel Bratt: Everybody's comfortable. Thank you. Okay, got it. Mary Antes: Thank you. The next
Rachel Bratt: meeting, let me just say one other thing I know. In the meeting before last, we talked about Catherine, and I doing kind of some overviews of housing issues, and I think we're prepared to do it. But given the ad, you know, and get a bunch of topics that people want. More background, and since we have some new memories, but I think we should just put that all through that Catherine and I were in touch and came up with the mini agenda, but that got shelved with the ADU stuff, and I wasn't at the last meeting. So I just want to say I haven't forgotten about it. I love talking about this stuff, so I'll be happy to go through some of the housing issues history programs, but right now, I think we've got to focus on the ATD forum getting all that done, but it's in the back Jim Grumbach: room. I guess that's good point. Rachel Bratt: So we don't have
Unknown: to vote on the consensus is to Rachel Bratt: postpone. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just offering to postponement Jim Grumbach: until after the ADU Mary Antes: form. Yeah.
Unknown: I Okay, so the next meeting we're talking about mid October, and are we going to stay on Wednesday Rachel Bratt: nights? Wednesday, Mary Antes: my niece is coming on the 15th, which I think is a Wednesday 22nd and my daughter is coming on the 23rd which I think is Thursday, Thursday. So 22nd to 22nd 22nd Unknown: is good. I actually had a trial which is scheduled to end on the 22nd so the 15th, so let's say October, 22 at seven o'clock Mary Antes: in person again. Or Unknown: how do you guys feel about getting out tonight? It actually was fine. Rachel Bratt: I was tired when I left my house. I feel Jim Grumbach: this time it's nice to see guys face. What do
Rachel Bratt: you feel Jack? I'm up for it
Mary Antes: in person or Zoom Unknown: probably easier? Rachel Bratt: Well, no, it's easy
Unknown: to be in person because I don't have a problem with being a guardian for whatever reason, nobody can hear me. Yeah, you know the problem with Zoom is there are times that somebody's computer perhaps out, or they don't get invited. We've had enough time so Rachel Bratt: you want in person? Yeah, we'll do it Mary Antes: in person. Maybe in the winter. We'll go back to zoom or something if we have a winter. So now I
Unknown: so in favor.